proposal to remove .mp3 from allowed gameboy submission files
BotB Academy Bug Reports and Feature Requests
Level 31 Chipist
post #151508 :: 2022.02.05 5:39am
  mirageofher, nitrofurano, DevEd and kilowatt64 liēkd this
i know there are reasons why mp3 is allowed for gameboy submissions, but this is 2022 and there are several ways to share lsdj-projects. examples for this can be found in previous GB-ohbs.

if someone submitted .mp3 to ntrq format, it wld be illegal too. (same for mp3 hardware render submissions to any other hardware-format). the exception for gameboy feels arbitrary and confusing, especially for n00bz i wld guess.

providing source/playback files is basically the heart of all the botb formats (at least in my opinion) and all those unusable mp3-files, especially on older GB entries, are driving me nuts

if someone is still unable to provide GB-sourcefiles, there's always wildchip.
this is also only fair towards the people who submit actual "gameboy"-files
Level 17 Pixelist
post #151509 :: 2022.02.05 6:27am
  nitrofurano liēkd this
I submitted gb files in my WC entry partly because as a noob I couldn't figure out how to get my project to .gbs (and I think I had read that .gbs was the preferred format when possible). I agree about the general open source feel of sharing project source when applicable and the general idea of not using .mp3 as a sole submission for GB. This is one of the things that makes botb great. On the other side, there are other formats where source is not required or necessarily accessible nor should it be (especially remix/wildchip which of course makes sense), but also stuff like VGM and HES unless there are converters or ways to extract source out of those I haven't come across yet.
Level 31 Chipist
post #151510 :: 2022.02.05 6:32am
  nitrofurano liēkd this
am not talking about sourcefiles, im talking about the hardware-compability of actual chiptune-formats.
or in case of vgm: the proof that it follows the hardware-limitations
Level 23 Pedagogist
post #151511 :: 2022.02.05 6:33am
The solution for those who still wants to submit .mp3 to gameboy format: Make a Game Boy mp3 player ROM for, to submit!
Level 17 Chipist
post #151516 :: 2022.02.05 9:06am
> i know there are reasons why mp3 is allowed for gameboy submissions,

what reasons? i suppose there are a few lesser-known music ROMs like nitro2k01's Amenizer and Rez, and there is also the option of making music with mGB and MIDI. maybe the only really compelling reason to keep mp3 included is that nanoloop v1 users don't have a way to share sources, but correct me if i'm wrong on that.
Level 28 Chipist
post #151517 :: 2022.02.05 9:21am
  mirageofher liēkd this
aren't there some lsdj carts that lack USB interface? that would be another situation where .mp3 would be necessary.

i thought the reason .mp3 was allowed was simply to make it easier to submit if you only make gameboy music on hardware... which i think differs from stuff like ntrq because it's *one of many* ways to make music for the gameboy format.

i'm not really opposed to removing it but i see why it exists and i don't really feel like botbrs take advantage of its existence as an available file format, esp since it's intended as "if you can't do the other stuff..." so like, why now, i guess
Level 31 Chipist
post #151518 :: 2022.02.05 9:38am
  mirageofher, MiDoRi and nitrofurano liēkd this
the reason i had in mind was because of old LSDJ carts and users who dont have a way to get files from them to their computer.

but you know, as dami said... there are so many ways to make music for gameboy nowadays.. u can even run lsdj in an emulator and get .sav files etc... so i rly dont see why mp3 shld still be allowed
Level 27 Chipist
post #151520 :: 2022.02.05 10:02am
i think that said reason is valid, but we'd have to ask around to see if that is still the case. if using lsdj with actual carts on actual hardware is still a thing, then imo mp3 should be allowed in order to not exclude them; else, no reason for mp3 to stay yeah
Level 23 Pedagogist
post #151521 :: 2022.02.05 10:17am :: edit 2022.02.05 10:20am
Albeit that I like my chiptunes system software data the most, I trust fair use of renders as entry submission
Level 26 Chipist
post #151538 :: 2022.02.05 2:47pm :: edit 2022.02.05 2:59pm
  ViLXDRYAD liēkd this
i'm in the opinion that mp3 should be illegal in wildchip as well, as we always can submit renders as well - but this is only my very humble opinion...

@ViLXDRYAD you made me remember retro hardware that can play mp3 data: sega model 3! xD (i can't remember more for now..)
Level 23 Pedagogist
post #151539 :: 2022.02.05 3:01pm
I wonder if mp3 being illegal for wildchip, a photo would serve as the next best source to submit as an entry

Thank you for bringing up about Sega Model 2, nitrofurano! I am yet unfamiliar with

You may me think about 630MB .iso entries for it or PlayStation CD-DA red book audio
Level 26 Chipist
post #151545 :: 2022.02.05 4:14pm
  azurglade, mirageofher, ASIKWUSpulse, father, petet, Xaser, sleeparrow, raphaelgoulart, MiDoRi, damifortune, kleeder and null1024 liēkd this
wildchip mp3 is valid because the whole point was to allow things like singing with chiptune, playing guitar with chiptune, mixing chips that aren't compatible, double gameboy, full-production stuff with heavy chiptune presence etc etc
Very against that proposal, haha. A greater variety of music can be made with no format restriction there

I think mp3 GB deserves a poll to get a community perspective. Not sure how to guarantee only botbrs are voting of course :P
Level 27 Chipist
post #151546 :: 2022.02.05 5:41pm
  nitrofurano liēkd this
I agree with removing mp3 from GB format, it seems like a holdover from the old LSDJ cart days that doesn't really fit with either the other console formats nor the current state of GB tools available. I too think any entry submitted to any of the console/hardware related formats should be replayable on actual hardware or reasonable substitute (emulation) in some way.
Level 17 Mixist
post #151548 :: 2022.02.05 10:12pm
  mirageofher, 607 and raphaelgoulart liēkd this
So if you're doing a gameboy OHB (with an everdrive in this case), you'd need to give yourself some time to:

1. Get to the menu via the on-cartridge button or by power-cycling it
2. Launch a different rom so that the sav will get stored on the card (I learned this the hard way)
3. Take out the microsd, put it in the computer (take care not to snap it in half)
4. Get LSDJ.SAV off the card and put it on the desktop with the others
5. Use some java program or whatever to get it into a gbs or lsdsng (I hope you did step 2 correctly)
6. Play it, it better sound right
7. Drag it into the submit window and pray (also hit the submit button lol)

After typing all that I realize plugging in an aux cable and fiddling with audacity might not be that much less complicated but if you make a mistake it's much harder to go back and fix
If you could submit the sourcefile AFTER the battle I'd absolutely be down for that
Level 23 Pixelist
post #151550 :: 2022.02.05 11:22pm
  kleeder liēkd this
I'm with Kleeder on this. And as Bubblegum said, bringing up wildchip in this context here doesn't really make much sense, because wildchip was meant to be a freeform streamed format from its inception.
Level 31 Chipist
post #151552 :: 2022.02.06 1:30am :: edit 2022.02.06 1:30am
  nitrofurano liēkd this
the steps you said seem time-consuming but they work, and unless the bitpack says otherwise, youre not forced to do it this way, you can also just choose a simpler way with a different tool.
the .mp3 submission format dates back to a time where LSDJ carts without export-option were the only available tool to do gameboy.
its not the case anymore, there are several other options.

i cld also go ahead and complain about commodore plus/4 battles the same way:
i wanna use TEDzakker on real hardware, instead of using the same tool in an emulator. or any other format with an available hardware tracker.
it will consume most of my time to get the files from that hardware to botb within the ohb time, but if i wld go here and ask for mp3 to be allowed for commodore +4 (and every other hardware with a hardware tracker) it wld obviously not make it, because the valid argument "just use it in an emulator for easier file sharing, and submit a hardware render later on" seems much more convenient than your argument "submit the hardware render first and the sources later"
Level 24 Chipist
post #151553 :: 2022.02.06 1:51am :: edit 2022.02.06 1:56am
  azurglade, mirageofher, Jangler, birdrun, Sloopygoop, 607, damifortune and raphaelgoulart liēkd this
It's been a while since I joined a GB battle, but removing mp3 would literally ban me from participating in another one since I use physical LSDJ

I realize that's analogous to other formats, but I think physical LSDJ is one of the most common ways people use chiptune, whereas almost every other format is more commonly done on the computer than using an external tool

i think an exception that makes historical and intuitive sense is better than consistency for consistency's sake.
Level 31 Chipist
post #151554 :: 2022.02.06 2:05am
  sleeparrow liēkd this
its not only for consistency's sake as i said. its because sharing hardware-compatible files is important on botb, to make sure everything is within the limits of the format.
youre one of the people who use real gameboy, but if someone makes their song in a DAW using samples or VST which isnt hardware-compatible at all, it wldnt be possible to confirm it is illegal, if they are allowed to just submit mp3.

and while this loophole is probably abused very rarely, i still think it doesnt make much sense to keep it, while submitting mp3 to famicom etc. is strictly not allowed.

as i slaready explained, you are not required to use physical LSDJ nowadays, there are several other options.
if you you say youre "banned" from gameboy becaus of this, it is a ban that you put on yourself, its not one that we put on you. you cld always go ahead and use LSDJ in an emulator or use an entirely different tool.
Level 27 Chipist
post #151558 :: 2022.02.06 6:16am :: edit 2022.02.06 6:16am
  azurglade and damifortune liēkd this
"i think an exception that makes historical and intuitive sense is better than consistency for consistency's sake." hard agree -- unless we have an history of people abusing the loophole, then there isn't a reason to remove it imo

consider that the number of people being restricted from using their favorite toolset may be higher than the number of theoretical wrongdoers this restriction would apply to - the negative side effects would have more impact than the theoretical intended effect. is that really worth it? have there been enough wrongdoers to justify this change?

(also, do note that i'm saying "restriction" and not "ban" -- yeah the person can just use other tools, but they'd be restricted from using their favorite tool, one that also yields valid chiptune, which may be detrimental for the format in the long run, especially considering how different stuff made with LSDj and, say, deflemask tend to be from one another)
Level 24 Chipist
post #151559 :: 2022.02.06 6:28am
  azurglade, raphaelgoulart and sleeparrow liēkd this
yeah, it's true that i could just switch to a more easily available method. i'm just saying that physical game boy is an unusually common thing in the chip world, more than any other reproducable format that i can think of.
Level 31 Chipist
post #151561 :: 2022.02.06 6:48am
  mirageofher liēkd this
people submitted mp3 in the past, just because "its easier to do so".
there are several examples of people who submitted mp3 to gameboy even tho they had the .sav or .gb file available.
just as one example: this entry is a mp3 submission while the sourcefile is blocked behind a paywall on bandcamp

if only people who "literally cannot" submit anything else than mp3 to gameboy wld do it, i wld still say "cmon boi just use LSDJ in an emulator instead" but i cld at least understand the intention.
but people frequently default to mp3 instead of sharing the source, which is against the spirit of botb.

and im gonna repeat myself again, historically, when there was actually no other way to do gameboy stuff apart from hardware, i understand why mp3 is valid. but you dont even have to restrict yourself to a different tool than LSDJ, because the tracker is available for free now and can be played on emulators.
Level 20 Chipist
post #151563 :: 2022.02.06 8:09am
  mirageofher, raphaelgoulart and BubblegumOctopus liēkd this
i think mp3 submissions to the gb format happen so rarely these days it's not really an issue either way?

we can remove it and pretty few people would really mind (very few edgecases where it's acceptable, enough to not support it)

we can also just keep it and it'll include those same people - if suspicions arise, they can be dealt with individually
Level 24 Chipist
post #151564 :: 2022.02.06 8:45am
holy shit am i that old? i don't remember how to transfer from gb to computer, i have one of those carts with usb port, i had a transfer software 3 computers ago.
Level 28 Chipist
post #151565 :: 2022.02.06 9:14am :: edit 2022.02.06 9:18am
  Jangler, raphaelgoulart, YQN and petet liēkd this
your one example is someone's very first entry? that seemingly no one in the comments has ever expressed distaste over being an MP3 submission and performed super well regardless? :s i wouldn't be so sure that's taking advantage of a loophole.

i haven't been around long enough to truly know how many examples there are of "mp3 where it didn't need to be" but my perception thus far has been that people know & understand that it's only in the list as a last resort... or at least they come to learn that. is it really "frequent"?

"consider that the number of people being restricted from using their favorite toolset may be higher than the number of theoretical wrongdoers this restriction would apply to"
"I think physical LSDJ is one of the most common ways people use chiptune, whereas almost every other format is more commonly done on the computer than using an external tool"

these two statements i think are good reason to keep MP3 submission. Gameboy's ecosystem is unique: it's an iconic portable system for which "creating on physical hardware" is unusually common, and in the past that creation wasn't able to be transferred to PC by any other means... and yes, many other methods exist, including more modern LSDJ carts/flashcarts in general with USB, emulation, and several other pieces of computer software to write .gbs. but if you OWN a gameboy and an LSDJ cart... for real, what else are you going to want to do?
Level 21 Mixist
post #151566 :: 2022.02.06 9:20am
  mirageofher liēkd this
i dug into this a little bit but didnt get very far cause i suck at chiptune.

one thing that is important here is to ensure the lyceum has crystal clear instructions on how to generate a file for submission. apparently some extra stuff is needed for custom kits but that's past my understanding of gameboy or how people usually leverage the format.

for someone who feels strongly about removing mp3 as a valid gameboy entry file extension, you could also be proactive on gameboy mp3 entries and try to help people get their song source files uploaded. that may sound like a lot of work but if you want the source for a particular song that might suffice as motivation.
Level 17 Chipist
post #151570 :: 2022.02.06 10:58am :: edit 2022.02.06 10:59am
  sleeparrow and kleeder liēkd this
@Luigi64 the .sav can be submitted directly, you don't need a java program to export the .lsdsng or .lsdprj file.

@sleeparrow i'd be happy to make any adjustments to lyceum articles re: generating lsdprj files, which include the kits
Level 28 Chipist
post #151571 :: 2022.02.06 11:26am
  raphaelgoulart and petet liēkd this
one final thought... mp3 is allowed basically "for legacy compatibility reasons" right? botb is one of the only places in the world that cares about legacy compatibility for all time, and it feels against that spirit to remove mp3

at the end of the day all this stuff is niche and should be treated with the individual care that nicheness deserves. this format happens to have a weird history and some unusual quirks and so mp3 happens to be allowed... i definitely get wanting all the boxes to look nice and neat and organized but not at this cost imho
Level 24 Chipist
post #151573 :: 2022.02.06 12:16pm
  azurglade, mirageofher and raphaelgoulart liēkd this
that's pretty much where i'm coming from, my argument is solely predicated on the game boy having such a unique and universal spot in chiptune culture. banning mp3 for every other format makes perfect sense to me, just not game boy with its physical iteration being so common in people's hardware kits. there are chiptuners out there who use LSDJ or Nanoloop on a prosound GB who haven't even heard of BotB yet
Level 31 Chipist
post #151575 :: 2022.02.06 12:49pm
  mirageofher and damifortune liēkd this
legacy compability isnt completely given elsewhere either. old nsf entries have expansions because they were submitted before nsf+ became a thing.
mariopaint had savestate-format allowed but it got removed too and now you may only submit .sho files

i dont think its a valid reason to keep .mp3 as a file format, when u can just use LSDJ on emulator instead.
or in short: i care about hardware-compatible files, i hate mp3 for chip-formats

guess i wld just run in circles and repeat my opinions from this point on... will not participate in further discussion, because i said everything important
Level 24 Chipist
post #151576 :: 2022.02.06 1:07pm
  azurglade, mirageofher, Jangler, raphaelgoulart, DefenseMechanism, Sloopygoop, damifortune, YQN and kleeder liēkd this
i on the other hand will repeat my opinions unceasingly, getting a little louder each time
Level 22 Grafxicist
post #151580 :: 2022.02.06 2:57pm :: edit 2022.02.06 3:08pm
  azurglade, mirageofher, Jangler, DefenseMechanism, KungFuFurby, null1024, MelonadeM and petet liēkd this
everytime ive entered a one hour battle ive always opened up the emulator and used a controller,

i just know that i could lose up to ten minutes time by trying to export my .sav or rom from hardware

while hardware is the optimal way to use lsdj, you can get a pretty similar experience by using the controller, and i still have had to allocate time to record my song in audacity / fl / etc

theres a lot of things that can go wrong using hardware, so if someone made the argument "i need mp3 submission because i make it on hardware" i would tell them to just use the emulator

i have a brand new flashcart from insidegadgets and it works great but unfortunately it still messes up sometimes and it takes a few tries to get my rom on the computer

but i do agree that if we get rid of it, there should be a guide written on how to save the files properly, especially because lsdj has a ton of tools for this on the internet, many versions etc, its just helpful for people!! no reason against it, i would be happy to help write something like this

i think its less of an issue of accessibility and more so botb has rules and values , such as being able to view the tracker file, so if you want to enter on botb, you need to be a bit flexible, maybe

theres a lot of gb songs i want to see the file for, and its just an mp3, which is the creators decison yeah

edit: this is just how i use lsdj also, i dont know how to use nanoloop but im sure its similar enough
Level 17 Chipist
post #151617 :: 2022.02.07 9:15am
  mirageofher, Jangler, MelonadeM and kleeder liēkd this
> but if you OWN a gameboy and an LSDJ cart... for real, what else are you going to want to do?

my answer: you're going to want to download the freely-available LSDJ ROM and a freely-available, very accurate emulator (not VBA).

there's another argument to be made here in the opposite direction anyway - you want to be able to see the source of your favorite songs on BotB but it's not available... for real, what else are you going to do? post an angry comment on the entry? i think a case can be made that removing mp3 will allow for more knowledge sharing and that can be considered a good thing for n00bs.

i own too many flashcarts and DMGs and after trying this once or twice, i now only want to use emulator for OHBs. it's way easier, regardless of the cart + DMG; it's clearly the better option. the preferred workflow would be to flash the song to hardware AFTER the battle.

for majors, it's not really an issue given that plenty of time is available for exporting from cart to PC. there's also allgear / wildchip if you want to submit mp3. (kind of curious if anyone with one of the blue LSDJ carts is reading this like NOOOO. most carts now are USB or microSD-based.)

it seems like most other hardware formats aren't made ON hardware either, likely it's more common to use a tracker or PC-based tool that generates hardware-compatible files but doesn't itself run natively on that hardware (i would be curious about noteworthy exceptions to this though).

rip nanoloop users (can't use emulator except with the freely available demo, and no way to save other than savestates)
Level 20 Chipist
post #151621 :: 2022.02.07 11:01am
I guess the one barrier to entry from HW (old) LSDj and emulated new LSDj (via sameboy or BGB) is the controls, but honestly I use a controller and it's done me really well, but ymmv.
Level 19 Chipist
post #151641 :: 2022.02.07 9:43pm
  mirageofher, Jangler, Sloopygoop and raphaelgoulart liēkd this
I'm with Tilde -- against removing MP3 as an option -- for the admittedly selfish reason that I'm running an (apparently old?) LSDJ cart with no convenient way of getting the files off to an internet, and that LSDJ on an actual Gameboy is a hell of a lot more convenient than in an emulator.

I do feel like the convenience of lsdj as a self contained composing tool is kind of a unique case here: For a major or a seasonal compo I can throw the Gameboy in my bag and work on songs on the train each day, which is much easier than lugging a laptop, power etc. This is less a factor for native trackers on other formats (c64 etc) where running native is usually less convenient than emulating.

It doesn't necessarily 'lock me out' of the format, but it would up the "can't be arsed" factor. So my protest is admittedly a selfish and lazy one, and I'll understand if more is pulled, but that's what it is.
Level 17 Chipist
post #151676 :: 2022.02.08 11:20am
  BubblegumOctopus, raphaelgoulart, Jangler and damifortune liēkd this
I can see the point of requiring a simple filetype upload, same as every other format. I started 13 years ago using an old-style LSDJ cart and no cart reader, and ended up trading it to nitro2k01 in Sweden for my recently-corrupted SAV data in return. By this point I have an ALTANE reader and USB cartridges coming out of my ears. I wouldn't have thought anyone working with hardware was still using cartridges with no way to get the files off.

But Tilde and birdrun are here to say that they're still out there using these methods. I have instant respect for others creating on hardware, and I'm worried about the barriers for participation this could put on musicians like them.

"just learn to work with an emulator" is I guess a valid response given that that's the way most people are working with most formats. but, with respect, it feels kind of harsh. (Me, I don't see the appeal.)

I suppose the question is not crucial either way but then, what's the internet for if not picayune debates? ;)
Level 24 Chipist
post #151729 :: 2022.02.08 8:58pm
  azurglade and Sloopygoop liēkd this
Don't let my preferred game boy style carry too much weight considering I have an M8 now and every GB tune I've produced turned out trash
Level 23 Grafxicist
post #151799 :: 2022.02.09 3:38pm
Why would removing mp3 allow for more knowledge sharing?

There doesn't seem to be any accessible way of turning a Gameboy file into readable data, and even if you could, I'm assuming it would be similar to reading NSF data, which withholds a lot of information about how the track was actually produced
Level 28 Chipist
post #151800 :: 2022.02.09 3:46pm :: edit 2022.02.09 3:48pm
  Webriprob liēkd this
LSDJ users submit .sav files for LSDJ roms (or a couple other LSDJ-unique file formats) - which is pretty much the equivalent of famitracker/0cc formats that you submit .ftm/.0cc modules to instead of .nsf. with LSDJ no .gbs is ever involved though

it's more knowledge sharing for LSDJ in particular in that way, 'cause it means you have to share your modules
Level 31 Chipist
post #151806 :: 2022.02.09 4:40pm
  KungFuFurby and damifortune liēkd this
sharing nsf or gbs will give you more knowledge than mp3 too because u can split the channels
Level 20 Chipist
post #151816 :: 2022.02.09 6:54pm
no more knoweledge. return to monke.

the more i think about it the more i'm kind of on board with just disallowing mp3 AS LONG AS methods for how to build a lsdj project file or whatever is the thing that has the samples included is covered on the lyceum somewhere (or whatever else is requested by those who mean to transition from hw-locked LSDj to emulator or a more modern interface)
Level 17 Chipist
post #151851 :: 2022.02.10 8:41am
instructions for .lsdprj export have been added to both the Game Boy (format) and LSDJ Lyceum pages. this is the preferred format for LSDJ submissions as it includes all the kits needed.

PSA / side note: please DO NOT include LSDJ ROMs in your submissions as this violates the clause of the LSDJ license that prevents distribution of the ROM. thank you.
Level 22 Grafxicist
post #151866 :: 2022.02.10 11:17am :: edit 2022.02.10 11:20am
  kleeder liēkd this
i am adding in a new input:

we should get rid of zip file format if we would like .lsdprj to become the standard

theres no use for submitting a zip really, everyone can just load the lsdprj pretty quickly for voting in a gameboy battle
Level 21 Chipist
post #152198 :: 2022.02.12 3:07pm
  Webriprob liēkd this
RIP muddygb cart liveplay entries
Level 31 Chipist
post #152606 :: 2022.02.18 9:28am
djmax said this isnt gameboy. but its a mp3 submission, not illegal per se on gameboy. if mp3 was banned from the format, veryifying entries wld be much simpler
Level 23 Pedagogist
post #152608 :: 2022.02.18 9:44am
As a tangent: Does it proposed on this thread indirectly makes live-played Game Boy entries to be illegal submissions?
Level 31 Chipist
post #152611 :: 2022.02.18 10:02am
i am in total support for liveplay but it should all go into wildchip or allgear.
Level 17 Chipist
post #152647 :: 2022.02.19 7:14am
@kleeder that entry is not found when i click on it
Level 27 Chipist
post #152652 :: 2022.02.19 8:23am
Because it was deleted.
Level 17 Pixelist
post #152654 :: 2022.02.19 8:56am
  ViLXDRYAD and damifortune liēkd this
Added some details on using .lsdprj files for playback in the lyceum.

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