Request: Remove Musescore format
BotB Academy Bug Reports and Feature Requests
Level 23 Chipist
irrlicht project
post #144158 :: 2021.07.14 11:21pm
  amelia, DevEd, Cessor Safari, nitrofurano, RazerBlue6, Fierde, Xyz and mirageofhim liēkd this
  Promtastik, qrqrqr0515_1, father, kleeder, petet, Lincent, hqaoqu, kfaraday and mirageofher hæitd this
I'm very unhappy to see the recent addition of Musescore as a format. I think that in light of the recent events surrounding Audacity

- we as a community should not endorse Muse Group or any of their products in any way
- I wouldn't touch Musescore with a ten-foot pole, since the issues regarding telemetry/privacy mentioned in that article apply to Musescore as well.

So as per title, please remove/retire the Musescore format.
Level 23 XHBist
post #144161 :: 2021.07.15 12:15am :: edit 2021.07.16 12:24pm
  father and irrlicht project liēkd this
[edit: i got the badge. heh. but it would be cool to keep M. Score 4-Matt around, i need to get gold badge eventually...]
Level 30 Chipist
post #144165 :: 2021.07.15 1:52am :: edit 2021.07.15 2:19am
  RazerBlue6, irrlicht project and Lincent hæitd this
  father, petet, raphaelgoulart and mirageofher liēkd this
i dunno the specifics of what is changing in the license, but it doesn't seem like a big deal...? i'm not sure what a program being able to collect anonymous usage data has to do with being able to use it for battles; it's a free and easy to use software that doesn't own the songs you make. you're free to "not touch it yourself", though
Level 27 Chipist
post #144166 :: 2021.07.15 2:29am
  Savestate, Jangler, Lincent and mirageofher liēkd this
maybe like with deflemask, are there older versions that dont engage in the unwanted practices, that people would be able to have access to, to enjoy continued use of the software without the question marks over it?
Level 23 XHBist
post #144167 :: 2021.07.15 2:32am
  cabbage drop, Lincent, qrqrqr0515_1 and kfaraday liēkd this
there are plenty of older versions available on places like sourceforge

i recovered the good old 2.0.2 and 0.9 versions from thar... though i use 2.3.2 mostly, good stable version right in the middle there
Level 30 Chipist
post #144168 :: 2021.07.15 2:37am :: edit 2021.07.15 2:45am
  RazerBlue6 and irrlicht project hæitd this
  raphaelgoulart, Jangler, qrqrqr0515_1 and mirageofher liēkd this
yeah i mean; the main thing ppl shld b concerned with is if there's any license changes that conflict with botb's but i seriously doubt there will be, and even if we really must insist on a worst case scenario down the line, theres plenty of paid and closed sourced formats on botb. renoise is paid and closed source. open source/privacy hacker types are welcome to gather here but it's never been an official religion or anything, just another genre of guy who is welcome
Level 30 Chipist
post #144169 :: 2021.07.15 3:04am :: edit 2021.07.15 3:34am
  tael, qrqrqr0515_1 and mirageofher liēkd this
(i hope nobody is taking that as some "deliberately affected contrary stance on some topical drama", i'm not "agent smith" from "the matrix", its just that i don't care about what "timely stances on topical issues" "mean" or "signal", as these things don't matter beyond some short term ruffling of egos. we also don't know any of the people involved or what their "intentions" are, clear as they may seem. from a long term perspective, for the website, it doesn't seem like anything has changed, and people like the format a lot)
Level 11 Chipist
post #144193 :: 2021.07.15 11:34am
i was thinking about renoise the other day but i think the demo is almost fully functional and lets u save, u just can't use ASIO or render to .wav or do a few other things
Level 19 Pedagogist
post #144229 :: 2021.07.15 4:03pm :: edit 2021.07.15 4:06pm
  qrqrqr0515_1, Yung Gotenks, mirageofher and kfaraday liēkd this
i wasn't aware of the license stuff with MUSE, so i appreciate your post regardless, even if i don't agree with removing the format/probably won't cease the use of audacity or musescore
Level 6 XHBist
post #144242 :: 2021.07.16 11:24am
  mirageofher and irrlicht project liēkd this
Irrlichht, I would have to agree with you on this, telemetry in this program is highly questionable at best and I understand that privacy is a big issue for many people including myself.

However, in my own opinion, removing/retiring the format would not be a good idea. For a couple of reasons,
-The community not endorsing musescore would be hard when there are a few people in this community that does legitimately use Musescore for their own works/purposes.

-People use Musescore at their own discretion, as other people have their own preferences.

-Removing the musescore format runs the risk of excluding people from the community who might only use musescore.

As this was already a known issue, I suspect that there are workarounds regarding telemetry on the internet. If that does not work, maybe suggest an alternative or not use musescore at all.
Level 19 Pedagogist
post #144243 :: 2021.07.16 11:48am :: edit 2021.07.16 12:02pm
  raphaelgoulart, mirageofher and Chopy61 liēkd this
It should also be made clear for people who didn't click through, that the information currently planned to be collected is very restricted in scope. Also, since it is an open source project, you can see exactly whether they're being honest about said scope.

You can make all the slippery slope arguments you'd like, but MUSE isn't itself a scary three-letter organization. The telemetry situation should be judged primarily on its present scope. If said situation changes, I will reconsider the issue.

For a lot of people, including me, it's not a big deal if Tantacrul gets to see, in aggregate with countless other users, a pseudonymized account of what filters I use. I simply do not care about that.

I think it's weird (and slightly condescending?) to insinuate that everybody should care about that to the degree you do. I am well aware the extent to which I am surveilled by technology companies and, by extension, more powerful actors, and having a smartphone for me is already giving up a lot more every second of my life.

Should one make that trade-off? I don't think individual moral actions matter much when it comes to broad systemic issues like this, in terms of "turning the tide". For the moment, given the relatively light nature of the telemetry, everyone should be able make their own choice.
Level 30 Chipist
post #144246 :: 2021.07.16 12:01pm :: edit 2021.07.16 12:03pm
  mirageofher and R3M liēkd this
right; we could add a big bold disclaimer "warning" ppl that [some software collects "information" (deliberately vague term to sound scary! what information???) that an enormous amount of software including browsers n most websites and mobile apps etc already ask for...] because of some blogpost drama primarily motivated out of some parochial anxiety about "a long-standing paragon of the open source software community" (which has nothing intrinsically to do with botb) is chinese whispers, things aren't automatically "emotionally relevant" just because people on twitter find it "emotionally relevant", right? you should think about why people react the way they do to determine what it is, not simply say "people are upset" (for what reason?). it's a "worrying trend" (again, most software does telemetry to check for bugs and not to sell your social security cards to the vatican or whatever, and its literally normal if they "ask permission" (most ppl deny permission bc they dont realise its literally just logging usage info to check for bugs n think it is some ideological ouija board thing)) at worst, but i don't feel like taking some big stand against "having a cool format that my friends like to use"
Level 30 Chipist
post #144248 :: 2021.07.16 12:04pm
  mirageofher and R3M liēkd this
hope i don't sound rude here, this is literally just how i talk lol
Level 9 Mixist
post #144249 :: 2021.07.16 12:09pm :: edit 2021.07.16 12:11pm
  R3M hæitd this
i haven't read musescore's terms of service, but it feels kind of far fetched that an audio production vendor would disallow the sharing of the application's "end user work files" publicly.

if that's what we're talking about here.
Level 19 Pedagogist
post #144250 :: 2021.07.16 12:11pm
  Svipal liēkd this
pizza-chan you can read any of the posts in this thread to determine what issue is being discussed
Level 23 Chipist
irrlicht project
post #144252 :: 2021.07.16 12:12pm
  Tathar, nitrofurano, RazerBlue6, puke7, cabbage drop, mirageofher, kleeder and R3M liēkd this
Woah, that's a lot of h├Žit. Well if you're all so attached to the format, then I guess I'll just have to accept that, huh. However, I wanted to bring this up, because not everybody here might be aware that the company behind Musescore is involved in some rather shady business practices. And I thought we could have a constructive discussion about it.

Stuff like "if you dont wanna use the format, you dont have to." is not what I consider a constructive discussion. Like, seriously? I'm on this site long enough to know that, no? It's also completely besides the point.

My main gripe is with the proposed Privacy Policy
. Apparently Muse Group is willing to share any unspecified type and amount of data with law enforcement in any jurisdiction. Which means that for example if law enforcment in $evil_dicatorship request that $botbr's microphone be tapped, they'll do that. In my opinion, any company that's cool with that kind sh*t needs to go the way of the dodo, and quickly.

Among other things, Muse Group is also willing to share any data with any "potential buyer [emphasis theirs] (and its agents and advisers) in connection with any proposed [emphasis mine] purchase, merger or acquisition of any part of our business [emphasis mine]". Ugh, that's even more over-reaching than Facebook's policy.

The whole licensing thing is not a major concern for me, and more importantly it's nt relevant to Musescore. Musescore has had a CLA since long before they were acquired by Muse Group, so I don't see much of an issue here.

As far as Audacity is concerned, I'm cautiously hopeful that the Tenacity
fork will be the way forward. I've heard some Linux distros are considering switching to it, which is a very good sign, but overall it's too early to tell at this point.

Ok, one last remark about this: "open source/privacy hacker types are welcome to gather here but it's never been an official religion or anything, just another genre of guy who is welcome". Eh, you are aware that these "hacker types" are responsible for a good amount of the tools that are being used and cherished around here, right?

Anyway, so much for that. Now let's get on with our lives, eh.
Level 30 Chipist
post #144253 :: 2021.07.16 12:16pm :: edit 2021.07.16 12:22pm
  tree, qrqrqr0515_1 and mirageofher liēkd this
yeah, i mean; maybe that is weird; (or it's just there to cover bases?) like dude i'm trying to think of "what crime could i get arrested for that would involve "data while i was using musescore"" lmao; dude maybe they are going to arrest me for writing "CHILD PORN" in giant notehead letters... it just doesn't make any sense to me, maybe there is something like "hacking microphones" that i am not considering. it seems like a pandora's box with nothing in it (like most "kinda weird" things that rile people up on the internet, lots of "what kind of guys does this remind me of?" but without any connection to the situation at hand)

(i'm co-deving a tracker for the website myself so i'm not exactly removed from this, but yeah)
Level 19 Pedagogist
post #144255 :: 2021.07.16 12:19pm
  mirageofher and kfaraday liēkd this
that's a good clarification, my bad
Level 9 Mixist
post #144256 :: 2021.07.16 12:21pm
  R3M hæitd this
@R3M well the reason I asked was because the posts didn't answer my question. and I know too little about the format itself

but if you don't want to be helpful or constructive, you don't have to.
Level 30 Chipist
post #144257 :: 2021.07.16 12:24pm
  tonreihe, father, cabbage drop and mirageofher liēkd this
personally i think it is beautiful that the lord and the united nations and the fbi can hear my beautiful songs...
Level 23 XHBist
post #144258 :: 2021.07.16 12:26pm
  nitrofurano, father, cabbage drop and kfaraday liēkd this
ooo awesome, we can take control of the government with the power of music
Level 30 Chipist
post #144260 :: 2021.07.16 12:30pm :: edit 2021.07.16 1:29pm
  tonreihe liēkd this
i mean, ok; "constructive discussion". i feel like i was less inclined towards this since the thread opened up with "remove the format" while me and my friends were enjoying it... but i can discuss this, i'm trying to articulate something along the lines of "you do know the extraordinary difference between facebook and musescore with regards to 'the type of data people put into those programs to be shared in the first place' right" (i'm not saying you don't understand this, but it makes the "oh, it's just like facebook" comparisons a little less appropriate from a skimread, i don't understand all the context... as far as i know at least, like theres an order of magnitude difference between what this seems to me, which is "the government knows everything you said about yourself and others whether you set it as a public or private status with your real name attached" versus "the government knows that you made a midi file")

i mean, forgetting that i don't actually need to have a "long-range discussion about the topic at hand" (because it's all vague scrabbling for 'stances on issues that are far too vague to define the real values of stances on them properly, hence nobody is intimidated enough to avoid projecting funny book and movie desire brains onto it' and speculation) and that i just need to say "the effects of a tiny hobbyist website 'normalising some hypothetical or quasi-real stasi-like government system in the globe at large by letting people compo with a music program' will be far outweighed by just letting friends that we know in the here and now have a well-requested music program to compo with"; right?

(none of this actually matters since the thread seems to be resolved)
Level 9 Mixist
post #144264 :: 2021.07.16 12:36pm :: edit 2021.07.16 12:46pm
  puke7 liēkd this
@irrlicht project

it's fair reasoning (and i personally align this way too, i wouldn't use the program).

but in this sense i really do think it's up to the people whether they want to use it or not, with any privacy risks utilizing such a program creates.

atleast in regards to those reasons, it's not like hosting the files would pose any concern to botb itself (unless encouraging the use of a "bad" program should be botb's concern in the first place. OR, if i've missed something about what a submitted file contains, as said, i don't know much about the format hence my first question)
Level 30 Chipist
post #144266 :: 2021.07.16 12:39pm
  pizza-chan liēkd this
yeah; i mean. it feels open and shut to me, "thank you for the info, we'll keep it in mind. format stays i think?" we're doing more harm by offending people than anything that "might happen", you know? so i don't want to offend anybody, but it's good to keep our heads screwed on in times like this
Level 9 Mixist
post #144267 :: 2021.07.16 12:40pm
a big disclaimer would pretty much solve the problem in the best way possible, if anything. as you suggested @kfaraday
Level 30 Chipist
post #144268 :: 2021.07.16 12:41pm :: edit 2021.07.16 12:41pm
  mirageofher liēkd this
if somebody wants to code us a non-"medicis in florence" ass open source music notation program we'd be happy to include this, too... lol
Level 23 Mixist
post #144280 :: 2021.07.16 2:17pm
  zipdisq, maJsty14, nitrofurano, JWPH, father, mirageofher and kfaraday liēkd this
  Xaser hæitd this
Level 15 Criticist
DCT Master
post #144301 :: 2021.07.17 4:23am
I love how Vav resolved the whole thread with just one post
Level 9 Mixist
post #144309 :: 2021.07.17 9:21am :: edit 2021.07.17 9:24am
you can also run it in docker, it seems. if you're worried about getting fingerprinted.

depending on what you use it for
Level 13 Chipist
post #144314 :: 2021.07.17 5:09pm
Does this mean we can't post Tantacrul videos on BotB anymore?
Level 28 Hostist
post #144340 :: 2021.07.18 8:52am :: edit 2021.07.18 9:57am
  garvalf, Razerek, Doxic, Xaser, tree, ASIKWUSpulse, raphaelgoulart, father, petet, mirageofher, kleeder, KungFuFurby and kfaraday liēkd this
the criteria for all formats is that there are tools that are both free and available on the 3 major desktop operating systems

in the case that a format is a specific software it still needs to meet those requirements

people do argue against renoise from time to time, but there are a lot of tools that do not have .wav export (the main argument against)

i have no problem adding something like the following to the musescore description: "warning: this software is known to record personal information such as ip address and usage data"

i don't have legs to stand on when it comes to the morality of collecting user data to improve software (or selling to big data buyers) since i pay adobe $60/month for them to spy on me similarly (not that i have any plan for botb to do this!)

but i do agree botb could be sharing such a warning to let the user base know what they are subjecting themselves to
Level 22 Chipist
post #144427 :: 2021.07.20 6:49am
I can understand some hate against musescore, but for my part I'm using it for composing most of my music (and I don't care about the telemetry), so I'm pretty loving it.

But on the other hand what I don't understand is why there is a dedicated format for musescore in the first place: the final result is more or less exactly like a MIDIFILE
Level 28 Hostist
post #144436 :: 2021.07.20 9:46am
  kleeder, garvalf and qrqrqr0515_1 liēkd this
I think the things that make musescore stick out from a .midi file is the ability to customize sheet music layouts, chart chords, and place lyrics. I've already seen excitement around the idea of using musescore to make jazz lead sheets or pop song sheets so that others can battle around producing the same songs! :D

LOGIN or REGISTER to add your own comments!