Hosting Major Battles
BotB Academy Bulletins
 
 
115552
Level 30 Chipist
post #115552 :: 2019.11.11 11:55am
  
  big lumby, OminPigeonMaster and Yung Gotenks liēkd this
  
  ordinate hæitd this
So... on IRC, we were discussing what should be the requirements to host a major battle if you're not puke7.

This post is just a summary (aka chatlog lmao) of all ideas so far and this thread will be used to collect even more ideas so that puke have something to work with and can make major battle hosting easier!

If you have ideas and suggestions, post them here! :D/


---DISCUSSION ON PRICE---

<vombot> [puke7] 2500 boons is a lot :u
<vombot> [puke7] but also could have multipliers for number of weeks and number of formats
<kleeder> oh only 2500? tbh my first thought was 5000 xD
<kleeder> but yeah, multipliers for formats and weeks sounds good
<kleeder> 2500 as a basic 2 weeks-1 format battle and maybe +500 per week and +750 per format? is that too much
<kleeder> idk
<kleeder> would be 2500+500+500+750 in my case
<kleeder> possible extensions on entry (or voting) periods would need a payment of 500b as well, maybe
<vombot> [puke7] thats almost 5k
<pumpuli> I'd say 750b per format and some base amount (like 2500b) for the whole thing would be nice
<pumpuli> I don't think majors should cost differently based on how long it takes (and it should have a default for like a month? or two weeks?)
<pumpuli> extending should obviously cost boons
<vombot> [puke7] sometimes we have 48 hour majors tho too
<vombot> [puke7] different numbers of formats should cost something? and we could do like the deposit around number of entries too
<pumpuli> oh yeah the format-cost should be a deposit for sure similar to ohbs
<kleeder> if a format has less than 7 entries for example


---DISCUSSION ON HOST REQUIREMENT---

<kleeder> oh and who should be able to host in the first place? do you wanna do it manually for everyone? i thought about a "Host" badge or something that you can give to a botbr temporarily, so that the acc is able to access the battlecreate-page or something
<pumpuli> maybe a level-related thing with a one-major-a-year limit per account?
<kleeder> that was my first idea, but idk if thats a good thing, because you might end up with too many battles at the same time if 4 people decide to host one
<kleeder> we have a lot of (active) level 27 botbrs
<tfx> yeah I was just going to say that
<pumpuli> or like, at lvl n you can host 1 per year, n+1 you could host 2, and so on
<kleeder> but what should be level n
<tfx> what if major hosting is based off of your contribution to other majors?
<tfx> so you can't spam majors, but if you enter a lot you can beghast more
<tfx> so basically, if you're kleeder, you can spam majors
<pumpuli> maybe also a cap for concurrent battles?
<kleeder> a limit to ongoing battles sounds good (unless your account is puke7) maybe 3 or 4
<vombot> [puke7] maybe you have to host 100 successful OHBs to host a major 😄
<vombot> [puke7] i don't know if that's the number, but its close
<vombot> [Dippy] 100 3+ entry ohbs as a requirement might be a good idea



<tfx> puke7 hosted majors should be super-majors
<tfx> Major Majors
 
 
115554
Level 20 Criticist
Xyz
post #115554 :: 2019.11.11 12:20pm
  
  Yung Gotenks liēkd this
To bounce off tfx's point, I don't think entryship itself should be an indicator of hostability. We can and do get a lot of troll entries in majors. And even people voting them highly.

Maybe even a threshold higher than 20pts for "successful"
 
 
115556
Level 31 chipist
there should definitely be a limit on majors to keep the spam away. i say no more than 3 concurrent majors at any given time with the seasonal majors already scheduled and unable to be overridden.

this all should coincide with the item shop opening by 2025
 
 
115560
Level 28 Chipist
post #115560 :: 2019.11.11 1:26pm
  
  argarak, KungFuFurby and Yung Gotenks liēkd this
i agree with chipchamp and i also agree that ascension should be prerequisite. maybe also the 7 badge thing for hosting any format in an ohc normally
 
 
115561
Level 24 Chipist
post #115561 :: 2019.11.11 2:06pm :: edit 2019.11.11 2:09pm
  
  argarak, kleeder and Yung Gotenks liēkd this
if there's gonna be a limit on how many Majors can be hosted at the same time, I think the price for extension should be higher (just adding 500 makes it so I could just host a 7-week PC-x801 major lmao), or at least increase exponentially.

Also is the is the Major hosting just gonna happen by goodwill of the community? Because just allowing anyone who fills the requirements to host might allow for things like one major more people are excited to see happening be delayed because someone else was faster to host a Major no one else cared about

though that's unlikely if ascension was required but just throwing the possibililty here
 
 
115562
Level 20 Criticist
Xyz
post #115562 :: 2019.11.11 2:10pm
  
  Quirby64, Flaminglog, mk7, Chip Champion, argarak, ordinate, Yung Gotenks and pedipanol liēkd this
troll majors are gonna be such a headache
 
 
115564
Level 15 Mixist
post #115564 :: 2019.11.11 2:28pm
this is going to be horrible, i can feel it
 
 
115565
Level 22 Chipist
post #115565 :: 2019.11.11 2:30pm
  
  Slimeball liēkd this
i am hyped
 
 
115566
Level 30 Chipist
post #115566 :: 2019.11.11 2:31pm :: edit 2019.11.11 2:32pm
  
  YQN and pedipanol liēkd this
this might be too complicated to implement, but what about the idea to have a voting period for major battle ideas?

lets say the "custom major battle season" is between summer and winter chip. botbr with the requirement are able to set up their battle idea, but instead of getting hosted directly, every idea is collected and all botbrs can vote on them. (lets say while summer chip is going on)

the (3,5,7?) battle ideas with the highest score (and if its 25+ or so) can be hosted by the botbr who had the idea.
 
 
115567
Level 23 Chipist
post #115567 :: 2019.11.11 2:34pm
  
  Xyz and kleeder liēkd this
I think what pedipanol said about ascension possibly being required to host majors is a good idea so that way, there could possibly be less troll majors and stuff like that.
 
 
115568
Level 24 Chipist
post #115568 :: 2019.11.11 2:42pm
I support the voting idea! And it could also open the possibility for non-ascended botbrs to have good major ideas happen before they reach the required level!
 
 
115569
Level 24 Chipist
post #115569 :: 2019.11.11 2:56pm
  
  ovrthrustr liēkd this
Why not call them "minors" since they're neither major nor OHB?
 
 
115570
Level 30 Chipist
post #115570 :: 2019.11.11 3:00pm
  
  YQN liēkd this
ohbs are already minors if you're looking at the browser search (major only/minors only)
 
 
115575
Level 28 Hostist
post #115575 :: 2019.11.11 6:52pm :: edit 2019.11.11 7:01pm
  
  big lumby, pedipanol, kleeder and zygrunt liēkd this
alright some thought....

SMALLEST possible MAJOR
1 format • 48 hour entry period • 1 week vorting

^ and so what is that worth?
deposit and minimum entries
also a flat fee to host
host must have badge and be ascended?

...so after 48 hours there's 1 week then 2 weeks then 3 weeks
each costing twice as much boons (plus deposit!) per format!
example: 2 weeks would cost 4x as much as 48 hours

Voting Period:
minimum 1 week
should be longer or equal to half of the entry period
2 weeks entry = 1 week voting
3 weeks entry = 2 week voting
4 weeks entry = 4 week voting

MAJOR APPROVALS!
site admins must approve a battle before its public
uh... but maybe admins can use formats they don't have badges for?

START WHEN?
start in x hours?
could have a visible countdown up to a few days?

BEGHaSTiNG
I'm thinking we need a create page like for OHBs.

Then an edit page.
5 Voting Categories (5th one must contain the case insensitive substring of 'pant')
bitpack is optional
host can make their own cover art or add as format?
are cover art formats cheaper for a reason?
(cover art type based on format(s)?)

MAX BATTLE CouNT
4 active battles max at any time including entry and voting periods? huh? (kind of worried we could somehow get locked into all voting and no entrying somehow (but then i could still ad a 5th battle if i want to because i am king donger))



ALRIGHT BACK TO WHAT KLEEDER SUGGESTED
<vombot> [puke7] 2500 boons is a lot :u
<vombot> [puke7] but also could have multipliers for number of weeks and number of formats
<kleeder> oh only 2500? tbh my first thought was 5000 xD
<kleeder> but yeah, multipliers for formats and weeks sounds good
<kleeder> 2500 as a basic 2 weeks-1 format battle and maybe +500 per week and +750 per format? is that too much
<kleeder> idk
<kleeder> would be 2500+500+500+750 in my case

uhhhh////..... so maybe
2500 to host a major
++ 500 * time_val * format_count
++ deposit of 750 * time_val * format_count
(( or maybe just 1250 * format_count ))
entries per format for deposit return?
11 entries per format for time_val == 1
17 entries per format for time_val > 1?
27 entries per format for time_val > 2?

ok so time_val table time
1 = 48 hours
2 = 1 week
4 = 2 weeks
8 = 3 weeks
16 = 4 weeks
 
 
115576
Level 30 Mixist
post #115576 :: 2019.11.11 6:53pm
  
  big lumby, Jakerson, ovrthrustr, Quirby64, argarak, kleeder, Chip Champion and zygrunt liēkd this
wat holy shit i can put a bunch of shite samps together and host a 2 day remix major thats fukt wow
 
 
115577
Level 31 chipist
post #115577 :: 2019.11.11 7:30pm
  
  argarak, pedipanol, puke7, kleeder, Xyz and Sinc-X liēkd this
i really like the admin approval idea. maybe do one week of approval time, battle needs to be plus 2 (+2) approval from admins. One admin approval vote gives a +1 and one disapproval a -1. Admins hosting automatically get their +1 for ease of use :p
 
 
115578
Level 30 Chipist
post #115578 :: 2019.11.12 12:34am :: edit 2019.11.12 2:31am
@puke7 comment
+1 for every single idea except this one "could have a visible countdown up to a few days?"

i like that BOOM THERE U GO moment when a new wild major battle appears. maybe make the countdown only visible for admins while they "vote" if they want the battle or not? if its less than +2 (like chipchamp said) at the end, the battle is not made public.

there are 4 problems with that tho:
1. normally, a battle is created as soons as you chose name and formats, right? if you'd have to verify it first, that would mean a lot of ghost-ids without actual battle, if there are a lot of troll or bad ideas. might be good to come up with a special case for pre-battle period before it is turned into an actual battle. maybe an additional tab at the front page only visible to admins like "Current Battle Suggestions") idk

2. what if there are less than 2 admin votes in total? i know there are enough admins around usually and it will pretty much never happen, but an error handling might be good just in case

3. major battles are currently showing up immediately in the arena under current battles and major battles after creation. only showing them after their entry period started would be better

4. people can already tell everyone about their hosted battle before its public, but you cant avoid that xD



------------------------

also: whats with tally and results (stream)?
 
 
115583
Level 23 Chipist
post #115583 :: 2019.11.12 9:25am
  
  sc and KungFuFurby liēkd this
whatever the outcome of this, Public Toilet (and any other free-to-use accounts) should be banned from hosting majors to restrict troll majors

though I think that could be worked around too by matching IP of whoever was logged in at time of hosting
 
 
115588
Level 25 Mixist
mk7
post #115588 :: 2019.11.12 2:30pm
  
  Slimeball, tennisers and DCT Master liēkd this
My first move is going to be a sunvox major I swear I will do this
 
 
115593
Level 27 Renderist
post #115593 :: 2019.11.12 4:35pm
  
  tennisers, mk7 and Slimeball liēkd this
NightRadio said he'd be interested in a SunVox major. I have emails. ;)
 
 
115604
Level 26 Mixist
sc
post #115604 :: 2019.11.12 6:13pm
  
  ovrthrustr hæitd this
"<tfx> what if major hosting is based off of your contribution to other majors? "

How about for every 100 majors you've entered you can host one Major? That should keep the trolls away.
 
 
115622
Level 19 Chipist
MS
post #115622 :: 2019.11.13 11:55am :: edit 2019.11.13 11:58am
<sc> "How about for every 100 majors you've entered you can host one Major? That should keep the trolls away. "

Possible hostists: puke7, Strobe, Chip Champion :)
 
 
115624
Level 26 Mixist
sc
post #115624 :: 2019.11.13 2:06pm
Warlord could do it, I could do it, probably others? The more botbrs who can host, the more majors will be available to enter and the easier it'll be to reach a high number. 100 is shooting pretty high but I'm thinking in terms of there being more majors a year with the restructuring.
 
 
115625
Level 30 Chipist
post #115625 :: 2019.11.13 2:16pm
  
  sc liēkd this
tobikomi is able to, i am able to, baron knoxburry as well

lol

i think its a good restriction. this wont stop people from submitting entries with public toilet until the acc is able to host major battles, but tbh the acc is also able to host allgear ohbs and noone is ever using the possibility, so why is that an important thing to think about?
if it gets a problem, the acc is getting an ailment and everythings fine
 
 
115628
Level 27 Renderist
post #115628 :: 2019.11.13 2:48pm :: edit 2019.11.13 2:56pm
  
  mk7, ovrthrustr, pedipanol, irrlicht project, charlotte, YQN, argarak, KungFuFurby, Xaser, Chip Champion, growley, kleeder and Yung Gotenks liēkd this
i still go for crowdsourcing.

n00b posts a major, the rules, bitpack, etc. if X amount of boons are raised and deposited for the major in 2 weeks then the major is beghasted. if the major gets <15 entries, the deposit is forfeit to the bank. if boons aren't raised in two weeks for the major before beghasting, half the boons are refunded but hostist points are rewarded too. this also assures that active, boon-earning members are the powerful constituents and BotB gets its boons.

if we leave beghasting majors to admins or special n00bz it creates a vacuum of creativity. people get lazy and/or busy. this creates more activity and more influence to the n00bz. power to the n00bple.
 
 
115629
Level 18 Chipist
post #115629 :: 2019.11.13 3:38pm
  
  ovrthrustr and YQN liēkd this
crowdsourcing sounds like the best option so far. it automatically avoids troll entries getting over the line and gives badgeless members like myself somewhere to put my precious boonage.

but there should probably still be some sort of pre-requisite to be allowed to major host still, it just doesn't have to be as harsh
 
 
115638
Level 31 chipist
post #115638 :: 2019.11.13 7:20pm
  
  b00daw liēkd this
but if we crowdsource it, the battle will come out a year after it was supposed to :cop:
 
 
115641
Level 23 Mixist
post #115641 :: 2019.11.13 10:16pm
  
  sc and YQN liēkd this
Oh boy Kleeder has created a monster hasn't he?
 
 
115642
Level 30 Chipist
post #115642 :: 2019.11.14 2:04am
  
  sc and YQN liēkd this
hahahah.
its cool to see how many people care about this!
 
 
115646
Level 27 Chipist
post #115646 :: 2019.11.14 7:49am :: edit 2019.11.14 7:49am
  
  sc, charlotte and b00daw liēkd this
Interestingly, I'm interested in reviving a concept that hasn't been used in years on this site... and it could be done as three seperate majors to get around a limitation of the modern site (unless the code's still there for handing this kind of battle...).

...the 3xTheme chip.

It's been 11 years since the last one was run.
 
 
115660
Level 27 Renderist
post #115660 :: 2019.11.14 2:14pm
  
  KungFuFurby liēkd this
code wasn't ported... has to be rewritten. :x
 
 
115683
Level 27 Chipist
post #115683 :: 2019.11.15 11:07am :: edit 2019.11.15 12:02pm
Well, the concept can always be adapted accordingly, particularly the polls, for which unlike the others... has no real equivalent that I know of, unless Detroit's own "sample" were used as an improv template (or the poll was done elsewhere).

Plus, I found voting results for 3XTheme Chip ]|[, which at least gives me data on what exactly the other, losing themes were... somewhat.
 
 
115684
Level 24 Chipist
post #115684 :: 2019.11.15 5:28pm
  
  Sloopygoop, Slimeball and ordinate liēkd this
Japanese Computer Major Battles FMSX69800

- PC98/PMD (PC-98/88 Only)
- AY-3-8910 (MSX Only)
- Wild Chip (FM Towns YM2612 + Sharp X68000 + MSX YM2413 + SCC)


DMG Party

- GB DMG


Original FamiTrack (OFT)

- FTM or 0CC (Multiple Songs)
 
 
127311
Level 20 Chipist
post #127311 :: 2020.09.22 4:28am
  
  Jakerson, CastleNes and kfaraday liēkd this
hi! bumping this because ngl, i am a HUGE fan of this idea! this would give more of a communal aspect to botb beyond the xhbs and such.

...however, there needs to be some changes. namely in response to the fact that, well, 2hbs and 4hbs are a thing. the initial plan's costs are scarily close to the 2650 a no penalty 4hb would suffice, so if i may, a revised pricing schema.

[(1000 * x) + (500 * z)] * y
where:
x = amount of days the major is hosted
y = amount of formats within the major
z = amount of days voting is available

time periods would have to be in terms of weeks (excluding battles that are 2 days long), so let's say the time_val integer is 0 - 7, where:

0 is 2 days
1 - 7 is x amount of weeks
time_val also apples to voting with a seperate tag i'm assuming

so let's say someone hosts a battle where entry time_val = 2 and voting time_val = 1

1000 * 14 days = 14000
500 * 7 day = 3500
14000 + 3500 = 17500
and let's say there's uhh 2 formats
so 35000 boons to host that major

ofc, this is a heaping heaper of a hefty heftin price to pay, but it creates a juxtapose between xhbs and majors. with this, the following image is crafted: xhbs are cheaper, more affordable battles that can be done on a whim or in a series of such, meanwhile majors are more luxury battles that take huge investments to make feasible. it's like having a choice between a ford and a ferrari. also it prevents spam majors lol

oh and uh boon bonuses uhm

i guess 300 * x, where x = entries in the major?
add that with boon deposit return on:
17 entries with entry time_val = 0
29 entries with entry time_val = 1 - 2
45 entries with entry time_val = 3 - 7

iunno, something to make sure that the host isn't completely bare-ass broke by the end of it if it turns out to be boonloss. i'm open to any suggestions though, these are just my initial financial calculations (as well as my broken knowledge of js) and will be prone to change/evolution.

aight, requirements. i feel like i got some ideas for such:
  • for botbrs that aren't ascended, have at least 56 boonsave battles hosted in the format you wish host a major for, as well as a silver badge.
  • for botbrs that are ascended, the requirement is halved to 28 boonsave battles in format/bronze badge.
  • for admins, the requirement is reduced to just having the badge in that format

not really fleshed out atm but i feel like it's appropriate, given how big majors are. it would make sense to have a system wherein it requires you to count how many battles you've hosted, tracking how experienced you are as a hostist and whether or not you deserve the right to host.

as for limits, i'm more open to having 3 or 4 active entry periods at a time. 2 of which are for puke's majors (spring/summer/winter, monthly chip, etc.) with the rest going to the botbrs hosting their majors. voting periods will probably be the same tbh. this is mainly to clear clutter up and such, as it'd be a clusterfuck having 7 majors going on. it'd be a cool clusterfuck, sure, but still a clusterfuck.

i think that's about it tbh
 
 
127318
Level 28 Hostist
post #127318 :: 2020.09.22 7:50am
  
  Jakerson, kfaraday, argarak, big lumby and kleeder liēkd this
I like how these suggestions are coming together. I don't think hosts should have to pay for the voting period. Voting periods should be as long as they need to be get a decent amount of votes. Shortest entry period a major has had is 48 hours / 2 days. Longest entry period we've had (besides Decadent Decade which was 1 year) I think has been 8 weeks.
 
 
127319
Level 30 Chipist
post #127319 :: 2020.09.22 10:20am
  
  Jakerson liēkd this
excited for COUNTELPRO major
 
 
127350
Level 20 Chipist
post #127350 :: 2020.09.23 12:06am
"I don't think hosts should have to pay for the voting period. Voting periods should be as long as they need to be get a decent amount of votes."

that's actually a really good point, puke. it does seem kinda superfluous to charge people for something that really should be set in stone in the first place. that's kinda one of the things i've been working on whilst revising the initial formula, having no fee for it at first and having it automatically set at either time_val = 1 or 2, making it just:

(1000 * x) * y
with extensions upon the voting period costing between 600-1000 boons each.

i was also kinda contemplating having it be a multiple of y added upon a base multiplier, instead of the base value of y, so it'd look like this:

(1000 * x) * [0.2 + (y * 0.8)]

this is at the highest multiplication rate i'm thinking, anywhere between 0.6 and 0.8 i feel would work best if mitigation is indeed settled upon.

let's plug in the values of the initial formula into this potential one:

1000 * 14 = 14000
* [0.2 + (1.6)] = 1.8
14000 * 1.8 = 25200

not as big of a number as before, but still a good amount to both seperate them from xhbs and prevent troll majors. i believe that was a big proportion of the reason why this got shelved, how people were worrying about it enabling accounts such as public toilet to host shitpost majors, in a sense? in that case, i intend for the pricing schema and requirements i'm devising to practically prevent that from happening whilst still being an achievable goal for those really wanting to do one.

"An host badge could be a good requirement to host these
host x OHB to have badge, Y 2HB to have Bronze, Z 4HB to have silver, and some major to have gold
And to host major, you need silver badge^^"

castle said this in the discord earlier, i think that this is a neat idea, albeit with its flaws. it does make sense as an alternate requirement - have a badge earned by hosting battles - but it comes off as redundant alongside the already present set of badges, in my opinion. i also feel like it'd be confusing for some having 2 sets of badges, not to mention a bit crowded.

that said, however, i think it's worth implementing in a more altered fashion, as the concept behind it is novel. a visual interpretation of your hosting might...hmmb...how about having a sorta emblem or jewel on a badge, around 6x6 in one of the corners, detailing what kind of major the person can host?

green jewel = 25 boonsave battles hosted, can host 2 day majors
yellow jewel = 50 boonsave battles hosted, can host up to 2 week majors
red jewel = 75 boonsave battles hosted, can host up to 4 week majors
white jewel = 150 boonsave battles hosted, can host up to 8 week majors

i feel like it could be worth implementing as a measure of knowing how many boonsave battles are hosted and what you are capable of doing.

that's my expoundings for today on this, i'm glad this is getting some feedback and such! i'll be working on this alongside my other works and updating the thread as need be ^^
 
 
127352
Level 30 Chipist
post #127352 :: 2020.09.23 1:12am
  
  big lumby liēkd this
"still a good amount to [...] prevent troll majors. i believe that was a big proportion of the reason why this got shelved, how people were worrying about it enabling accounts such as public toilet to host shitpost majors, in a sense?"

keep in mind that the idea for avoiding troll majors was to wait for admin approval. something that should still be done imo. well, especially puke7-approval obviously.
 
 
127353
Level 20 Chipist
post #127353 :: 2020.09.23 1:23am
"keep in mind that the idea for avoiding troll majors was to wait for admin approval. something that should still be done imo. well, especially puke7-approval obviously."

ahh, true true. it would make sense for puke/an admin to approve of the idea first before it goes through. i mean, there's probably someone crazy enough among us to go through the requirements as fast as possible just to host a troll major.
 
 
127354
Level 30 Chipist
post #127354 :: 2020.09.23 1:27am :: edit 2020.09.23 1:28am
  
  big lumby liēkd this
not only troll maybe, but also to check if there are copyrighted samples in the bit pack or if the battle time overlaps with something else/more important etc.
 
 
127355
Level 20 Chipist
post #127355 :: 2020.09.23 1:37am
yea, that does make sense as well. i gotta say, it's good to see a great amount of checks and balances being planned out for this feature; it's appropiate, given that majors are, well, the biggest battles botb has to offer. to have them continuously spammed without proper regulation would be an enormous mess, to say the least.

also holy shit this idea is really getting revived now i'm so happy :DDDDDD
 
 

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