Mon Oct 25 20:22:22 2010 -
<20:22:29 Strobe> So now i have made my point.
<20:22:31 lunar> asse
<20:22:36 chipchampion> ............
<20:22:39 puke7> =o
<20:22:43 Strobe> i have no comments
<20:22:53 Strobe> well then, lets see how this holds up.
<20:23:16 Strobe> he usually gets a bunch of participants anyways, im not sure how he does it, it surely is impressive.
<20:23:38 chipchampion> hmmmmm
<20:23:42 Grifter> Strobe: what point though? the hackers either intentionally or unintentionally slandered the company and the game.
<20:24:07 Strobe> The point that i understand why Blizzard is suing people who creates the hacks.
<20:24:36 puke7> man, should i do this ohc or try to sort out a couple BotB bugs? xD
<20:24:42 trap15> bugz
<20:24:43 Strobe> puke7 bugs
<20:24:50 puke7> LAWL!
<20:24:52 chipchampion> googog bugz
<20:24:56 Strobe> :P
<20:24:57 Grifter> Strobe: and I thought I was paranoid :-P
<20:25:13 Strobe> There is nothing paranoid in anything i said. youre making stuff up again.
<20:28:40 Grifter> Strobe: clearly in the case of Titan Quest there was confusion as to who or what had caused the problems in the game. But the confusions does NOT necessarily stem from the cracks themselves. Most likely poor communication on the part of those who were distributing the game with the cracks.
<20:30:51 Strobe> Well then we could argue about if the manufacturer of the Protection for the game is to blame, since its them who made the protection code. so if the protection code crashes, then its their fault. Most of the crashes where at points where there was CD/DVD checks. and people who reported those bugs more or less showed to be using the crack.
<20:31:06 Strobe> i mean, these are posts on the actual Titan Quest forum when it was in use.
<20:31:13 Strobe> people with the cracks who reported bugs
<20:31:21 Strobe> that was actually related to the cracks themselves
<20:31:32 Strobe> but this is not a phenomena that is just in the case of Titan Quest.
<20:31:36 Strobe> it works for all games now
<20:31:52 Strobe> people who dont buy the game, downloads a crack, and then blame the company if the game crashes.
<20:31:58 Strobe> and starts reporting bugs.
<20:32:03 Strobe> that are not really in the game itself.
<20:32:07 Strobe> its hilarious
<20:32:19 Grifter> And none of this would ever happen in the first place if the game were open to begin with
<20:32:31 Strobe> wat
<20:32:50 RichardStallman> ALL GAMES SHOULD BE FREE SOFTWARE
<20:32:57 RichardStallman> EVERYTHING SHOULD BE FREE SOFTWARE
<20:32:59 Grifter> hahahahaha
<20:33:05 RichardStallman> PAYING FOR SOFTWARE SHOULD BE PUNISHABLE BY LAW
<20:33:10 puke7> So go culture jam somewhere>
<20:33:12 RichardStallman> I'M A DICK SUCKING FAGGOT
<20:34:00 puke7> Bust out a copy of AdBusters, it's such a happy magazine. Wait... are they still publishing that?
<20:34:18 puke7> Oh yeah, it's expensive and depressing...
<20:34:21 lunar> sing richard stallman free software song
<20:34:51 Strobe> I download games and cracks all the time, just to test out the game. But i would never in the world be so stupid to go and report bugs or issues about the game, when not actually being used in its proper function.
<20:34:59 Strobe> that is, with the real exe files.
<20:35:03 puke7> I kill twenty starving children every day I walk to work while using my iPhone to listen to stolen mp3s.
<20:35:48 puke7> And all that beer we sell at the bar? Each bottle extincts another speices!! :O
<20:36:16 Grifter> Strobe: I have to admit though, I'm a radical when it comes to my ideas in regards to software. Software isn't scarce. We use laws to create artificial scarcity. And that scarcity only exists because people fear persecution if they violate those laws.
<20:36:27 lunar> every time you eat cheese you are destroying entire living colonies of cheese mites
<20:36:28 puke7> The glaciers are melting because we have ice in our water.
<20:36:34 lunar> you disgusting selfish pigs
<20:36:37 puke7> But I need advertisements so I know what to buy.
<20:37:16 Strobe> hahahahahaha
<20:37:29 Strobe> puke7 i know the feeling
<20:37:55 Grifter> Strobe: and personally I think that's insanity
<20:38:04 puke7> Good software is scarce. I should be able to plug my mind into the computer and generate a decent BotB interface free of bugs, y'know?
<20:38:19 Strobe> im all for closed source.
<20:38:23 Strobe> really
<20:38:26 Strobe> i love closed source
<20:38:32 puke7> BotB is closed source.
<20:38:33 trap15> all materials are scare. that's what economics taught me :3
<20:38:38 trap15> closed source sux
<20:38:42 ui> puke7, yes!!!
<20:38:45 puke7> I scare at the thought of materials too.
<20:38:46 Strobe> puke7 and thats good actually.
<20:38:57 Strobe> i think it would have been more of a mess if it was open source
<20:39:28 puke7> Well, especially a few years back when I had no idea what direction I was going. How do you lead a team w/o direction!?!? xD
<20:39:34 Grifter> source code and network access are NOT the same thing
<20:39:47 puke7> what?
<20:39:52 Strobe> wat
<20:39:55 puke7> do you mean this channel?
<20:40:37 Grifter> just because someone has access to the source code doesn't mean they are allowed to come to BoTB's webspace and modify the webpage and all databases associated with it
<20:40:38 Strobe> dont do it! its a tarp! dont start a new argument!
<20:40:54 puke7> yes, but they could put it on their own server with their own mods
<20:41:10 Grifter> that would be a bad thing?
<20:41:22 Strobe> :-o
<20:41:31 puke7> i'm a slow developer, last thing i need is a small group saying "let's run with this" and i get left in the dust
<20:41:32 chipchampion> puke7: less chats moar bugz ;DDDDD
<20:41:37 Strobe> jajajajajaja
<20:41:39 puke7> truetrue
<20:42:06 puke7> this bug is stupid... don't wanna say what it is till i lick it :D
<20:43:01 Grifter> puke7: there's always someone better out there. that's reality. It doesn't mean you won't get credit though. We all love you for what you've done...you created this community...or at least helped in a very large part. :-)
<20:43:21 Grifter> *INTENT* is a very powerful thing
<20:44:45 Grifter> but more than likely, the only people who'd be looking at the source would be the people who are already members of the community
<20:45:29 Grifter> they might go off and do their own thing but I highly doubt it would be at your expense. You're a highly respected member of this community
<20:45:45 puke7> Yes, well, I've had many more people ask for the code for their own purposes rather than asking to assist in development.
<20:46:09 chipchampion> there can be ONLY ONE BOTB
<20:46:16 Grifter> hahaha
<20:46:21 puke7> And, yes, I do believe most of the community would stick with me.
<20:46:25 chipchampion> thou shalt not hold a false botb above it
<20:46:34 puke7> lol
<20:46:50 puke7> too bad for "Benefit of the Boomerang" xD
<20:46:59 Grifter> *Queen chimes in - Here we are! Born to be kings! We're the princes of the universe...*
<20:47:02 puke7> damn the renoise forum and that guy's name
<20:48:42 Grifter> puke7: but just look at most forks out there in the FOSS world. if they're successful, which most aren't, they have their own community...for a while anyway...and usually the fork merges back into the original project
<20:48:45 puke7> ok fixed that bug
<20:49:02 puke7> palette stuff was borked
<20:49:23 puke7> i tried to create a shortcut where palette ajax stuff didn't load the user account
<20:49:37 puke7> apparently i did it a while ago and no one noticed ;D
<20:49:49 puke7> ...or complained
<20:50:07 Grifter> hahahaha
<20:50:31 Strobe> i never noticed it!
<20:50:42 puke7> i really need to modify the user system so user data is saved in session variables rather than reloading from the db every time
<20:53:59 Strobe> chipchampion mmmmm.... smeesh?
<20:55:09 Grifter> Strobe: anyway, I don't believe in using arbitrary law to cause fear and invoke an artificial scarcity in a product that's naturally not scarce. That seems absolutely crazy to me.
<20:55:34 Grifter> However, the labor involved in creating the product *IS* scarce... ;-)
<20:55:37 Strobe> So then, propose on how the situation should be dealt with.
<20:55:56 Grifter> Charge for labor
<20:56:03 Strobe> The whole point with this is to induce fear so that people stop doing it.
<20:56:54 Grifter> I think the problem is trying to *stop* people from doing something rather than convince them they to *do* something
<20:57:10 Grifter> *convince them to do
<20:57:51 Strobe> Im still more on Blizzards side at this point.
<20:58:19 puke7> I'm all for a free society, but it's one of those things that looks good on paper. How does a society start from scratch after tens of thousands of years.
<20:58:21 puke7> ?
<20:58:27 Strobe> But i think you dont really care since you are not a software developer who has to try to defend yourself against these type of people.
<20:59:01 puke7> I basically develop BotB for free. My main reward, well, we're looking at it! :D
<20:59:09 Strobe> =D
<20:59:27 Strobe> i can groom your beard
<20:59:52 Grifter> I'm a musician though, and I have to consider how I'm going to profit from being one when music isn't scarce either
<21:00:05 Grifter> you can copy music all you want
<21:00:39 Strobe> And Blizzard has made statements all over the place for MANY years, that they will deal with cheaters and creators of the cheats accordingly. they are not even hiding it. and yet people go berzerk when they actually deal with it . "Oh noes, we didnt see this coming! blizzard is so evil!"
<21:00:47 Strobe> Its really mindboggling.
<21:01:33 Grifter> that might be true and I appreciate their candidness. It doesn't mean I agree with it though
<21:02:03 puke7> making money with music is kind of a laugh
<21:02:11 puke7> i've been at that for over a decade now
<21:02:45 puke7> from what i gather - if you can't pack a house and rock the stage you're in a bad spot
<21:02:59 Strobe> what one should have done is to predict how big the iPad/iPhone business would have become.
<21:03:08 Strobe> since if you had started making apps in the beginning
<21:03:14 Strobe> well, you might guess it.
<21:03:29 Strobe> you would have been a millionaire by now
<21:03:52 Grifter> puke7: music is a product and like any product, it has an audience. If your product only caters to a very small audience you aren't going to make much money.
<21:03:55 Strobe> and jump on that
<21:04:39 puke7> there is the 1,000 fan theory - that if you have 1,000 loyal fans who buy all your releases and a t-shirt you can make a living from that
<21:04:48 puke7> 1,000 is a huge number for that
<21:05:07 puke7> in my local community i can maybe count on 50 for any given project
<21:05:43 Grifter> this might sound funny, but you might need more R
<21:05:55 puke7> heh
<21:06:03 Grifter> also you might need to expand your area of coverage
<21:06:14 puke7> a big thing i'm facing now is I haven't had any new notable product since '06
<21:06:46 puke7> i should be releasing an album or film at least annually to maintain momentum
<21:07:38 chipchampion> strobe: maybe smeesh later? i wanna work on mah beeper now
<21:07:52 puke7> i need to poop and beeper too! :D
<21:08:00 Grifter> do you open yourself for constructive criticism? have you had successful peers of your stile critique your work to help you improve on it?
<21:08:51 Strobe> chipchampion good enough!
<21:09:20 Grifter> I think amount of product is less important than quality of product and the amount potentially customers it's able to reach
<21:09:29 Grifter> *amount of
<21:09:37 Grifter> **potential
<21:09:42 Strobe> not the case of Guitar Hero.
<21:10:00 Grifter> at least at first anyway
<21:10:10 Grifter> Guitar Hero got a ton of exposure from the get go
<21:10:27 Strobe> not that im bashing guitar hero, i like the concept, and its actually fun.
<21:10:29 puke7> yes, i'm always open to criticism
<21:10:45 Strobe> puke7 you suck
<21:10:46 Strobe> done.
<21:11:02 Strobe> was that constructive enough?
<21:11:05 Grifter> It was high quality with a lot of exposure. After that, demand necessitated more product be created and released
<21:11:20 puke7> and most of it back then was "You're changes are too weird for people to follow." and so i've spent the past couple of years trying to develop a pop sensibility that doesn't make me gag
<21:11:42 puke7> i have a lot of new songs and i'm starting to develop an actual following in my town
<21:11:57 Strobe> i can recognize myself a bit in that
<21:11:57 Grifter> that's awesome!
<21:12:00 Strobe> but thats another story
<21:12:06 puke7> so i can play a venue and get paid at the end of the night even if it's only $40
<21:12:16 Strobe> and now i need some Torchlight! cheers!!!
<21:12:30 Grifter> later Strobe!
<21:13:08 Grifter> if you manage to get a small following, it can grow...
<21:13:17 puke7> right
<21:13:41 puke7> and i'm taking my time with it, i don't want to overplay myself which is what happenned with my band
<21:14:06 Grifter> find out what they like about your music and what are their favorite songs...what is it about those songs they like... maybe you can make more like them...possibly even better ones
<21:14:44 puke7> typically they like when i sing as opposed to crazy instrumentals
<21:14:54 Grifter> yeah, burn out's never a good thing
<21:15:15 puke7> nope
<21:15:43 Grifter> maybe you need more pop sensibilities in your instrumentals?
<21:16:27 Grifter> there's nothing wrong with using progressive or "experimental" elements to your music...but if you want to develop a real following you'll have to use them carefully
<21:16:34 puke7> right
<21:16:59 puke7> but i think i'm just better off writing songs with lyrics
<21:17:30 puke7> because a verbal hook has more initial impact
<21:17:54 Grifter> done well, it can make your music sound very original and give yourself a "signature" sound while still being accessible
<21:18:07 Grifter> done poorly though means alienating most of your listeners :-P
<21:19:23 Grifter> I think that's the thing...vocals are considered highly accessible
<21:19:47 Grifter> most people don't really understand harmony actually...
<21:20:48 Grifter> people get rhythm and language...but melody and harmony is more difficult to understand
<21:21:36 Grifter> most people refer to music these days as "beats"...which drives me nuts actually...
<21:21:39 puke7> yeah and then throw in some alternating odd time signatures and they ttly don't get it
<21:22:19 Grifter> yeah...this is the US, bro :-|
<21:23:27 Grifter> Europeans tend to be more open and appreciative of cerebral art...but the US...well...just look at our education system. I think that explains a lot :-P
<21:23:36 Grifter> or look at the way people vote :-|
<21:23:50 puke7> well they got nothing to vote fore xD
<21:24:06 Grifter> it wasn't always like that
<21:24:11 Grifter> but anyway
<21:26:33 Grifter> alternating and odd time signatures can be successful if done right...
<21:26:53 Grifter> one song that comes to mind is "Fell On Black Days" by Sound Garden
<21:27:09 Grifter> I think that alternates between 6/8 and 7/8 time
<21:27:13 puke7> or barracuda by heart
<21:27:15 lunar> time wank
<21:27:17 puke7> 7/8 and 4
<21:27:20 lunar> you need moooooore
<21:27:31 lunar> i love that zanzan song
<21:27:32 puke7> but i do stupid shit like 13/16 and 7/8
<21:27:36 lunar> that does it
<21:27:50 lunar> i will try and find it
<21:27:53 Grifter> 13/16??
<21:27:54 puke7> i got one song that's 15/16 and ppl follow it
<21:27:57 Grifter> jeez, bro!
<21:28:11 puke7> yeah i know
<21:28:22 Grifter> talk about having to wait for a long time for a solid down beat! :-P
<21:28:30 puke7> sometimes it's on purpose and sometimes my body just comes up with it on actual instruments
<21:28:42 lunar> http://8bc.org/music/Zan-zan-zawa-veia/a/
<21:28:44 lunar> :D:D
<21:28:54 Grifter> bass players...jeez!
<21:28:56 lunar> infectious beats
<21:29:06 puke7> lol "go join botb" xD
<21:29:15 puke7> greatest tune title ever jajajajajjaa
<21:29:46 ZeroV2> Fucking . . .
<21:29:52 ZeroV2> American music industry.
<21:30:07 lunar> :D
<21:30:15 Grifter> lunar: what did you make this with?
<21:30:24 lunar> i didn't! it's zan-zan's
<21:30:29 lunar> but he used famitracker
<21:30:35 ZeroV2> Zanzan is fucking amazing.
<21:30:47 Grifter> wow...that bassline sounds very SID-like...
<21:30:59 puke7> i think it's FM
<21:31:07 lunar> i think it's dpcm
<21:31:12 puke7> dunno!
<21:31:19 puke7> oh yeah, don't hear drum samples xD
<21:31:33 Wiklund> voted
<21:32:14 Grifter> alright, I gotta conk out for a while!
<21:32:15 Grifter> later!
<21:32:24 puke7> o/
Mon Oct 25 21:32:52 2010 -
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