fakebit? wildchip? allgear?? hello im a very confused n00b
BotB Academy Bulletins
 
 
122619
Level 30 Chipist
post #122619 :: 2020.06.15 1:28am
  
  big lumby and Quirby64 liēkd this
i tried writing helpful lyceum articles for all 3 formats but ended up being more confused than before.

the easiest thing would be to wait until puke is back online and just ask him about his thoughts, but maybe.... maybe i should start the war here and make it a public discussion. thats always a fun thing, right?


so, first of all: dont refer to the lyceum articles for the moment, they're a mess / outdated / confusing.


allgear is the simple one i guess. its "music" and thats it. use everything. do everything. youre good to go. can be chip, acoustic, daw, noone cares. for ohbs, everything that follows the rules is fine. as long as it is a piece of audio.

wildchip..... was the "fakebit" format.. at least until now. because now we have fakebit!! lets take a look at fakebit first, because its easier.
fakebit is "everything that sounds like chiptune", which is usually: simple waveforms or fm. its not limited to it, but most people usually say it "sounds like chiptune" as long as you can hear square waves in a track lol
you can still add samples and post processing, because noone cares as long as it has the "chippy sound". okay easy. dont submit real instruments only to this format or you die. its simple.

now.... wildchip -w-
wasnt wildchip the fakebit-format for years now..? it was used as one at least. if i had to draw a line between fakebit and wildchip, i'd say the difference is that wildchip needs to make use of an actual soundchip somewhere. its a chip gone wild. its not 100% fake. does this make sense? put your favorite soundchip in a new environment, combine your favorite chips, multiply soundchips (2x2A03, 3xSID, 4xSN7, 56xChannelF....) or add guitar and vocals on top of your zxbeeper track. maybe use it for a chip that doesnt have its own format on here... probably this stuff....?
u can still do this for fakebit, but fakebit is less restrictive in the stuff u can do.

so my point is: if you're creating a chiptune completely in a DAW and there's no bit played back on a real soundchip, its fakebit and u cant submit it to wildchip.
but thats just my own guess and personal opinion.
i just dont like the idea of saying "wildchip and fakebit are the same" because that defeats the purpose of having 2 different formats imo.

in terms of restrictions, it feels like its the following:
wildchip < fakebit < allgear
with allgear having almost no limitations.


well that needs to be discussed imo, soooo: DISCUSS!
 
 
122622
Level 25 Mixist
post #122622 :: 2020.06.15 1:39am
  
  Tilde liēkd this
Wot, fakebit? wasn't wildchip that already!?

Anyhow, sounds cool and I agree with what kleeder said about the restrictions and the other stuff.

And as with anything, whatever the host says is the rules for that compo, regardöess of format imo (obviously the host is stupid and silly if they host a wildchip and tell to use only recorded audio)
 
 
122623
Level 23 Mixist
Lia
post #122623 :: 2020.06.15 1:39am :: edit 2020.06.15 2:01am
From what I've understood Wildchip means it can be anything as long as it has chippy sounding elements in it* (e.g. could be a full orchestral piece with an FM lead and it would count as WC). I think as long as WC has existed it's been allowed to submit real chiptunes e.g. LSDJ, NSF etc.

Whereas fakebit means it sounds like real chiptune but it can be made in a modern DAW. (Definition of "sounding real chip" might be vague, for example, could you make a sampled tune with poor resampling and limited effects, and pass it as "SPC700 fakebit"?)

These are the definitions for those terms how I've undestood them. I might be misinformed though.

*E: It seems what I've understood to be the definition of "Wildchip" is back from when the article said "anything remotely chip is allowed". The article has since changed to exclude this part. (I might have read all Lyceum articles back when I joined and accepted these as the constitutional written-in-stone definitions)
 
 
122625
Level 15 Playa
post #122625 :: 2020.06.15 2:00am
  
  Jangler, sean, tennisers and Sinc-X liēkd this
Fakebit: An MP3 or OGG audio file that generates high consensus among BotBrs to be "fakebit". If you get sub-par scores and haeit comments it may not be "fakebit".

Wildchip: An MP3 or OGG audio file that generates high consensus among BotBrs to be "wildchip". If you get sub-par scores and haeit comments it may not be "wildchip".

Use Reinforcement Learning to discriminate the categories. Be aware that they may overlap.
 
 
122626
Level 23 Mixist
Lia
post #122626 :: 2020.06.15 2:09am
  
  Grumskiz liēkd this
 
 
122629
Level 23 Chipist
post #122629 :: 2020.06.15 2:53am
  
  kleeder liēkd this
At first I was like wat? Fakebit? Srsly? It's a highly controversial term who's main purpose is to create flamewars. But on second thought I think it's a chance. Because now we can change the meaning of Wildchip to mean "must be made for actual 8/16 bit hardware". So basically it would act as a catch-all format for chip formats that aren't included in a battle, and for works created with multiple sound chips.
 
 
122630
Level 23 Mixist
Lia
post #122630 :: 2020.06.15 2:59am
  
  Xyz and irrlicht project liēkd this
So if I got it right, you suggest redefining WC to something else and defining Fakebit as the thing WC previously meant?

I'm not really opposed to any changes as long as the "high consensus" is there, but if the rules change too much, that can potentially make massive amounts of pre-change entries retroactively illegal, which may cause confusion. So that's my main concern.
 
 
122638
Level 30 Chipist
post #122638 :: 2020.06.15 4:24am
back in the days, nsf was used for expansions as well before nsf+ was added, and it technically makes old entries illegal but that stuff happens. i dont see a big problem with changing format rules like that.
 
 
122639
Level 23 Chipist
post #122639 :: 2020.06.15 4:29am
I think it's definitely a valid concern. However I think the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. Theoretically we could also rename Wildchip to something else. But then again that name's great so hmm maybe not.
 
 
122640
Level 23 Mixist
Lia
post #122640 :: 2020.06.15 4:36am
Is there a reason not to leave Wildchip as is and have Fakebit be the one with the new ruleset, or is it just the way people prefer them to be named? (Sorry if this was already addressed and I missed it)
 
 
122645
Level 23 Chipist
post #122645 :: 2020.06.15 6:01am :: edit 2020.06.15 6:02am
  
  RazerBlue6 liēkd this
Well that'd be really confusing since the point of the "new" wildchip would be "realbit", not fakebit. Hmnmmm... realbit. How's that for a name?
 
 
122649
Level 30 Mixist
post #122649 :: 2020.06.15 7:01am
  
  Jangler, noodlebuckets, MiDoRi, charlotte, Jakerson, Modus Ponens, amelia, tennisers and kleeder liēkd this
fakebit is a slur and should be banned from God & Country
 
 
122652
Level 28 Hostist
post #122652 :: 2020.06.15 7:17am
  
  BubblegumOctopus, charlotte, petet, Xyz, VinsCool, amelia, Tilde, argarak, irrlicht project, Grumskiz and kleeder liēkd this
when I originally created Wildchip it was meant to be a category for combining things with real chips. So more chips with a chip or a live band with a chip or whatever. I would say Wildchip should continue to kind of be that... or a place to submit a chiptune that isn't available among the formats in a battle.

Fakebit is.... uh..... not really caring about traditional chiptune limitations whether that be the low pitch resolution of very early chips or a limit on channels. It allows the use of any and all effects on your instrumentation (so if you want an nes triangle with lots of delay and reverb cool!). But also you could use fancy 8-pole filter on a 8-note chord voicing with each of those voices having 6 sawtooth waves. Perhaps this format is superfluous. Perhaps it should give mixist points.
 
 
122657
Level 23 Chipist
post #122657 :: 2020.06.15 8:12am
  
  xterm, null1024 and tennisers liēkd this
wild chip was retroactively decided to incorporate real chiptune at the exact same moment I earned my badge for drawing pulse waves in renoise
 
 
122659
Level 22 Chipist
post #122659 :: 2020.06.15 8:30am
  
  MiDoRi, kleeder and Lia liēkd this
I absolutely understand what your original intention was. I also stand behind the fact that wildchip can be perfectly used for (obscure) formats that aren't available on BotB, as well as for fakebit (i.e. chip music — "authentic" or not — with (or without) effects and such as one sees fit).

HOWEVER

I'd like to point out the following:

As I have observed over the years, wildchip has been especially prone to being (ab)used as means for submitting an entry with already existing formats on BotB, which happened not the be available in a battle. Just look at the sheer amount of past (high placing) wildchip entries that are just plain NSF+ (maybe with some EQ or very basic FX). (((Sidenote: I have no problem with chip sounding S3XMODIT submitted to past wildchips.)))
It's hard to combat this because people don't follow strict rules if they're not strict in the first place. Besides, if it sounds like chip music, how could it be a problem, right?
Now that fakebit is (sorta?) extracted from wildchip, it (wildchip) has become an ever bigger excuse for these kind of submissions. Doesn't that kinda enlarge defeating the purpose of chosen formats in a battle?

Essentially what I'd like to be cleared up is:
• What stops a person from submitting wildchip to fakebit or vice versa?
• Is fakebit a superset of wildchip or are they actually much different? (For example, you speak about having a band play alongside stuff in wildchip, does this still count in fakebit?)
• Does "authentic" chip music with basic FX fall under wildchip or fakebit, or perhaps even both?

To me there's no clear line drawn and I'd like to understand the situation better please.
 
 
122672
Level 23 Chipist
post #122672 :: 2020.06.15 9:42am
  
  Jangler, MiDoRi, Jakerson, argarak, Grumskiz, kleeder, Tilde, RazerBlue6, Modus Ponens and tennisers liēkd this
vaguebit
 
 
122677
Level 22 Chipist
YQN
post #122677 :: 2020.06.15 10:46am
  
  Strobe, argarak, Xaser, tfx, SeniorBlastoise, Galgox, Jakerson, KungFuFurby, Xyz, RazerBlue6, Tilde, VinsCool, irrlicht project and kleeder liēkd this
As many, I find there is too much overlapping between these formats. Fakebit makes wildchip irrelevant, unless fakebit is not allowed in wildchip. That is to say:

allgear: all gear

wildchip (chiptune wildcard): all chip formats + mp3 for legit chiptune (several chips at once, generative music on hardware etc.)

fakebit: sounds like chiptune, but isn't

That's what makes most sense to me.
 
 
122683
Level 23 Chipist
post #122683 :: 2020.06.15 12:06pm :: edit 2020.06.15 12:07pm
  
  kleeder liēkd this
+1 to that. For wildchip, also "chip + other stuff" as originally intended by puke7. In other words, wildchip = must include real chips. I think that'd be a simple and clear rule that's easy to enforce.
 
 
122694
Level 20 Criticist
Xyz
post #122694 :: 2020.06.15 2:11pm
  
  charlotte and Lia liēkd this
it's the current year +5 and people are still buttmad about being called out for being fakebit at the same time other people get to enjoy fakebit at face value.

Also ishkur's guide labels heosphoros/yerzmyey/4mat etc. as fakebit LOL
 
 
122696
Level 28 Chipist
post #122696 :: 2020.06.15 2:47pm
  
  xterm hæitd this
  
  Jangler, MiDoRi, Xyz and tennisers liēkd this
make fakebit format choose at random whether to give mixist or chipist every time points are awarded for it
 
 
122697
Level 30 Chipist
post #122697 :: 2020.06.15 2:58pm
  
  Jangler, VinsCool, MiDoRi, YQN and Xyz liēkd this
it just gives fake points. they arent added to your actual points, its just a message "you earned 120 fakeist points" thats it

ah damn the thread reached the meme-phase
 
 
122702
Level 27 Chipist
post #122702 :: 2020.06.15 6:02pm
  
  VinsCool, Sinc-X, Tilde and puke7 liēkd this
I like YQN's interpretation of Allgear vs. Wildchip vs. Fakebit.
 
 
122704
Level 28 Hostist
post #122704 :: 2020.06.15 6:07pm
  
  tfx, Sinc-X, KungFuFurby and Tilde liēkd this
i like the random point type thing
also i agree with YQN
 
 
122706
Level 23 Chipist
post #122706 :: 2020.06.15 6:15pm
  
  Jangler and Baron Knoxburry liēkd this
gonna have to take "anything remotely fakebit" outta the description
 
 
122744
Level 25 Mixist
post #122744 :: 2020.06.16 11:19am :: edit 2020.06.16 11:21am
  
  Lia liēkd this
  
  RazerBlue6 hæitd this
If wildchip requires a legit chip now, then the source file (e.g. an .nsf for a 2a03 composition) ought to be submitted somewhere as part of the process, else there's no proof.

The trouble I can see here is that if we go with the "real chip + other stuff" interpretation, then with BotB's current code, the MP3 render and the source will not represent the same thing, and the render will effectively the judgeable entry, not the source.

That's... maybe probably OK? I dunno if that's a big deal in practice, just something to point out.

[QUICK-EDIT]: Might also be worth clarifying how much "other stuff" is allowed to be done to the resulting chiptune. Or maybe it should be left up to the "judges?" i.e. as long as the flow is something like "create real chiptune -> render chiptune -> do whatever post editing and additions you want with the rendered chiptune" then the entry is legal, then it's up to the voters to decide if there's not enough chip, as they say. :P
 
 
122747
Level 30 Chipist
post #122747 :: 2020.06.16 1:17pm
  
  tenryuu, boscutti939, KungFuFurby, RazerBlue6 and Xyz liēkd this
for remix format theres also no proof that someone used only the samples provided in the pack. i dont see the problem here.

gonna update the lyceum soon ~
 
 
122771
Level 23 Mixist
Lia
post #122771 :: 2020.06.17 8:15am
  
  tenryuu liēkd this
We should always be eligible for proof from the song author if there's a reasonable suspicion of them having broken rules.

In this case, that means showing/sharing the project file so everyone can verify that the song doesn't use outside sample sources (remix) or doesn't consist exclusively of chip elements that are actually Fakebit and non-replicable on a real hardware chip (nu-WC).

Otherwise a cheater could just do something really unfair like use a SID-style sound producing VST for their advantage, then deny all accusations and go "I didn't cheat, trust me bro!", and nobody wants that to happen, right?

So yes, there is proof and if not, BotB would just be a huge playground for rule-evaders. A decision to split WC into two formats was made, let's not fuck up this change with carelessness.


What's still left kinda ambiguous is how much are we allowed to add to WC entries in addition to the "real hw chip compability" part? Lyceum currently says vocals and post-processing is fine, how much can we use accompanying instruments? If we're not actually recording from HW but are emulating the chip with computer software, can we define what satisfies as "accurate enough" when it comes to emulation? Perhaps create a list of programs that are "certified" as accurate for Wildchip use.
 
 
122773
Level 23 Chipist
post #122773 :: 2020.06.17 10:08am :: edit 2020.06.17 10:20am
  
  Jangler, Lia and kleeder liēkd this
i don't think it's reasonable to create an environment where people feel like cheating is on the table in the first place. if we're actually going around wondering whether someone cheated on an entry by not following some inscrutable rule that makes no difference to the ear anyway, then the site fucked up, not the contributor. the idea that we need to maintain sanctity in wild chip entries undermines the reason the format exists in the first place. it's wild, it can sound like anything. a playground for rule-evaders is endlessly more fun than a playground for people who abide by strict delineated rules about what exactly does and doesn't fall under wild chip.

If you're asking "how is that fair?" - it's fair because it's wild chip. it's one particular format that's barely defined by its relation to fakebit. there is no codified difficulty level for it, and trying to create such a difficulty level wouldn't be fun. every chip format has different challenges associated with it; the entire draw of wild chip is that it's up to YOU what hurdles you want to jump on the way to creating your song.
 
 
122777
Level 23 Mixist
Lia
post #122777 :: 2020.06.17 12:00pm
I agree with you. It also seems that kleeder agrees. Now again, what's the actual distinction between Wildchip and Fakebit if we agree WC is in no way restricted to real hardware chips? Are we going to leave things ambiguous until someone comes up with more distinctive definitions and updates the Lyceum page or what?

There's an extreme feel of indecision in the air.
 
 
122779
Level 23 Chipist
post #122779 :: 2020.06.17 12:53pm :: edit 2020.06.17 12:54pm
  
  Lia liēkd this
I think the best thing we can do is come up with a clear, short description on the format that won't confuse people. If no post-processing is expected, it could be "Any chiptune at all! :D/". but if we do allow other instruments and processing, we could try "Make anything you want, as long as it contains some kind of real chiptune! :D/"
 
 
122785
Level 28 Hostist
post #122785 :: 2020.06.17 1:30pm
  
  Jangler, BubblegumOctopus and Tilde liēkd this
updated the wildchip format description

uh.... i really opened a can of worms here, huh? :D
 
 
122788
Level 0 n00b
post #122788 :: 2020.06.17 1:45pm
  
  xterm, Xaser, YQN and Tilde liēkd this
  
  Public Toilet hæitd this
is this where we punch boxes?
 
 
122791
Level 23 Mixist
post #122791 :: 2020.06.17 2:12pm
  
  Lia liēkd this
So let me see if I have this correct:

Allgear = Anything goes

Wildchip (as of now)= Can be any format but has to sound like a chiptune.

Fakebit = Doesn't have to be all chiptune, but as long as there's some chip it's fine (which I think is what wildchip used to be).
 
 
122792
Level 23 Chipist
post #122792 :: 2020.06.17 3:00pm
  
  Jangler, Lia and Strobe liēkd this
you have them switched
 
 
122807
Level 20 Criticist
Xyz
post #122807 :: 2020.06.17 8:53pm
  
  Lia liēkd this
For the wc lyceum, should it be SCX or today's edit that marks the Official Date where there's a split between older entries which fell under "format for any and all chip-sounding submissions. " and newer entries under the new definition?
 
 
122809
Level 31 Chipist
post #122809 :: 2020.06.17 11:03pm
  
  Jakerson and Lia liēkd this
hahahahahaa, the description of Wildchip on the submission page doesn't help the situation xD
"Explain instrumentation in the description.
Entry should be very chiptuney! Layer chips and samples and instruments or whatever! " <--- That would be FakeBit.
 
 
122813
Level 20 Chipist
post #122813 :: 2020.06.18 2:16am
  
  Jangler, MKSTAR26, Strobe, charlotte and Lia liēkd this
this was a mistake! this all was a mistake! roll it back! ROLL IT BACK
 
 
122814
Level 27 Chipist
post #122814 :: 2020.06.18 2:49am
  
  Jangler, hanna, Tilde, YQN and kleeder liēkd this
all chiptune is fake you write it in A COMPUTER!!!
 
 
122817
Level 22 Chipist
YQN
post #122817 :: 2020.06.18 6:01am
BUD ORIGINAL HARDZWARS ARE COMPUTREZ??? IS EVERYTHING FKAE?
 
 
122845
Level 0 n00b
post #122845 :: 2020.06.18 4:40pm
 
 
122852
Level 25 Mixist
post #122852 :: 2020.06.18 7:18pm :: edit 2020.06.18 7:28pm
  
  puke7 and Tilde liēkd this
So.... the formats are identical, and Fuk Da Rulez. Got it. :P
 
 
122854
Level 28 Hostist
post #122854 :: 2020.06.18 7:45pm
  
  Lia, petet and VinsCool liēkd this
I think what Zillah said is the most correct:

Allgear = Anything goes

Wildchip (as of now)= Can be any format but has to sound like a chiptune.

Fakebit = Doesn't have to be all chiptune, but as long as there's some chip it's fine (which I think is what wildchip used to be).
 
 
122858
Level 15 Chipist
post #122858 :: 2020.06.18 9:00pm :: edit 2020.06.18 9:01pm
Just to be sure, can a person can use Wildchip as a "wild card"?
Like, if there's a format they want to make that isn't part of the battle, could it be used to replace it?

eg: NSF Classic isn't part of the battle, there is Wildchip available, is it legal to use for that purpose?
 
 
122861
Level 31 Chipist
post #122861 :: 2020.06.18 9:30pm
  
  Tilde, kleeder, petet and VinsCool liēkd this
I've used Wildchip as wild card so many times….. so if that is not legal,
then I have cheated massively for the past 10 years and no one told me ;)
 
 
122862
Level 15 Chipist
post #122862 :: 2020.06.18 9:37pm
  
  kleeder liēkd this
Perfect, I just wanted to make sure in case I were going to make a huge mistake.
 
 
122869
Level 30 Chipist
post #122869 :: 2020.06.19 1:45am
  
  YQN, VinsCool and charlotte liēkd this
strobe, everyone knows that u cheated massively for the past 15 years. AABBLRLR Start Select Select to win another major battle
 
 
122879
Level 20 Criticist
Xyz
post #122879 :: 2020.06.19 11:01am
why not leave WC alone and go create a new format so it's legacy is unchanged?
 
 
122885
Level 28 Hostist
post #122885 :: 2020.06.19 1:47pm
  
  charlotte liēkd this
has its legacy really changed?
 
 
122889
Level 23 Chipist
post #122889 :: 2020.06.19 2:47pm
i mean nothing I've ever submitted as wild chip has ever matched that definition but I'm flexible
 
 
122893
Level 23 Chipist
post #122893 :: 2020.06.19 7:50pm
  
  Jangler and kleeder liēkd this
For what it's worth, I think the current explanations in the Lyceum for both clarify sufficiently. Having two formats for those approaches is sick as hell and I love it.
Hoping to pop back in here and make use of both!
 
 
122894
Level 23 Chipist
post #122894 :: 2020.06.19 8:13pm
  
  kleeder hæitd this
what's the deal with this "NSF" format?? how is ANYONE supposed to know what that is?
 
 
123256
 
 
123258
Level 22 Chipist
YQN
post #123258 :: 2020.07.03 8:14am
  
  RazerBlue6, Grumskiz and kleeder liēkd this
NSF is a generic format for anything that is

Not a Sound File

seems very obvious to me but again, not everyone has my IQ...
 
 
123335
Level 26 Mixist
post #123335 :: 2020.07.08 12:49am :: edit 2020.07.08 12:50am
so for all intents and purposes, all
of
these
songs
that
I've
linked
constitute
fakebit?
 
 
123416
Level 23 Chipist
post #123416 :: 2020.07.10 9:00am :: edit 2020.07.10 9:01am
  
  Xyz liēkd this
Real talk though, I'm pretty sure "fakebit" has always meant "sounds like chiptune but isn't actually", so the decision that it has to incorporate real chiptune is so confusing. I really think you have wild chip and fakebit switched.
 
 
123417
Level 22 Chipist
post #123417 :: 2020.07.10 9:28am
  
  tennisers liēkd this
just make both of them identical formats in specification and leave the idiosyncrasy at that for much less harm done imo
 
 

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