Proposal for a MIDI+ format
BotB Academy Bulletins
Level 27 Chipist
post #106395 :: 2018.12.31 4:27pm :: edit 2018.12.31 5:49pm
  Tiido, kfaraday, Flaminglog, BubblegumOctopus, VinsCool, raphaelgoulart, kinkinkijkin, speedy, Galgox and MiDoRi liēkd this
I've been yelling a bit too much about it on Discord, I'll just make a thread for discussion instead.

MSGS as a MIDI device is only good up to a point, and I think having a MIDI+ format that allows for usage of other things than MSGS would be a very fun and exciting thing. Of course, what MIDI device means here is mostly GM, GS, XG, and GM2 sound modules and equivalent software, considering the current MIDI format allows MSGS only (GM/limited GS) and MT32 (MIDI, but not GM).

What constitutes a sound module here would be either software or hardware that plays MIDI files in any of those standards listed above. Free software is perfectly fine, as well as proprietary hardware modules, as long as they can play a GM/GM2/GS/XG MIDI file. As for how to handle submissions, my thoughts on it are along the lines of a .mid file, plus a render, and a text file with sound module info and perhaps comments, all contained in a compressed folder (zip, rar, 7z, stuff like that).The zipped folder contains the MIDI file so people can play it on the sound device specified, and render for those who don't have the hardware and don't have or don't wanna download the plugin or software used.

I think having a MIDI+ format would be very fun and inspire some very cool and inventive entries from BotBrs, so I hope this could potentially become a thing

EDIT: And yeah, renaming the current format to MSGS and giving the new format the MIDI monicker is a good idea, as Speedy elaborates on below.
Level 4 Playa
post #106396 :: 2018.12.31 4:43pm :: edit 2018.12.31 4:49pm
  Flaminglog, raphaelgoulart, kinkinkijkin, anewuser, MiDoRi and MovieMovies1 liēkd this
Oh hey, this topic actually got me to post on this site again.

As someone who has worked with MIDI stuff in a sorta professional setting (once on the MT-32, one on the SC-88 Pro and SC-8850, and once on the SC-55), as well as made some EPs with it, I would absolutely love to see this site get a MIDI+ category or re-name the existing MIDI category to MSGS and have what Movies proposed replace it.

Supporting MIDI devices as a whole would lead to some very interesting entries - looking beyond the specifications offering some unique limitations not found anywhere else, the devices themselves that are commonly used for MIDI composition (Roland Sound Canvas, JV-1080, Yamaha MU, etc) are extremely flexible devices that have a very unique sound signature to each of them that's pretty much unmistakable once you know what each one sounds like.

I don't know how familiar the administrators here are with MIDI devices but I have been doing videos on them for a while now which might help explain why I'm so passionate about these things myself:

edit: I forgot to say, part of the reason I would prefer the current MIDI format be renamed to MSGS and for this to take its place is because it's kind very much incorrect to name it that because MSGS isn't representative at all of the full scope of what MIDI can do... it also further reinforces a very annoying stereotype of "MIDI" music sounding bad.
Level 23 Chipist
post #106400 :: 2019.01.01 5:20am
>my thoughts on it are along the lines of a .mid file, plus a render, and a text file with sound module info and perhaps comments

I think that's way too much. Personally, I think the MIDI file itself should be submitted, but the render is whatever sound module/soundfont was used. It should not be required to buy/use whatever they use, and instead be compatible with GM/GM2/GS/XG. That way, any compatible soundfont/module can be used to playback.

TLDR: make it like the MIDI format, but without render restrictions as long as it's specified what MIDI standard is used in the description! Besides, sysex usually solves that.
Level 27 Chipist
post #106401 :: 2019.01.01 5:45am :: edit 2019.01.01 5:45am
  raphaelgoulart liēkd this
That would cause problems with OHBs though, if those were to happen. I'm not saying only submitting a MIDI file would be per se bad, but it only seems suitable for a major battle where renders are uploaded usually immediately after the entry itself is. I tried as best to accommodate for OHBs where renders usually only happen once the OHB is over with the whole midi+render+moduleinfo zip pack idea.
Level 23 Chipist
post #106405 :: 2019.01.01 6:23am
  Slimeball liēkd this
For OHBs, if we put what MIDI standard it is in the title, then it should be perfectly fine.
Level 25 Chipist
post #106406 :: 2019.01.01 7:25am
there's a character limit in song titles, isn't there?
Level 4 Playa
post #106407 :: 2019.01.01 9:55am
  raphaelgoulart liēkd this
Raphael - in MIDI? No, the title can be as long as you want both in the MIDI it self and as a file name. I think you're thinking of old .MID files made on DOS/Win9x that were restricted to the 8.5 character limit of those operating systems.
Level 25 Chipist
post #106410 :: 2019.01.01 11:54am :: edit 2019.01.01 11:59am
  speedy and MovieMovies1 liēkd this
i meant on BotB itself, iirc puke7 added a 50 character limit for song titles and filenames at some point, but i could be remembering wrong

edit: forgot to say that i'm in favor of this. i was asking because of robyn's idea of putting the midi standard in the filename for OHBs, which might be not a very good idea for songs with overly long titles, though those are extremely rare so i don't think its an issue. (i think i prefer the .7z idea tho)
Level 27 Mixist
post #106412 :: 2019.01.01 1:05pm
  Razerek, Lia, Savestate, pedipanol and Robyn liēkd this
  speedy and MovieMovies1 hæitd this
> it also further reinforces a very annoying stereotype of "MIDI" music sounding bad.

Who says MSGS needs to sound bad!
Level 25 Chipist
post #106421 :: 2019.01.01 2:27pm
  MiDoRi and MovieMovies1 liēkd this
moot does (sort of but he brings good points)
Level 27 Chipist
post #106422 :: 2019.01.01 2:30pm
  speedy and raphaelgoulart liēkd this
Nobody said MSGS had to sound bad! In fact, MSGS can sound nice if you layer your sounds well and/or exploit some of the weird behaviours it has, but having it be the "face" of MIDI when it's the most cut-down and featureless MIDI soundbank I can think of is a gigantic disservice to GM, GS, and MIDI in general.
Level 23 Chipist
post #106423 :: 2019.01.01 3:59pm
  Post-retro, MovieMovies1 and raphaelgoulart liēkd this
I had a similar proposal for a format like this that sadly went nowhere ;___;
I'd still love some mixist incarnation of a MIDI format to exist!
Level 27 Chipist
post #106424 :: 2019.01.01 4:58pm
  BubblegumOctopus and raphaelgoulart liēkd this
bubblegumoctopus we've been referencing your proposal a lot here hahahahaha
Level 4 Playa
post #106437 :: 2019.01.02 3:07pm :: edit 2019.01.02 3:08pm
  MiDoRi, raphaelgoulart and MovieMovies1 liēkd this
Moot and Movies pretty much summarized everything about MSGS; it doesn't have to sound bad (in fact, some people have made it sound great) but it's objectively worse than what it's based on (SC-55/SC-88), and has one of the most ridiculously basic feature sets of any MIDI playback engine (it doesn't even have reverb/chorus support...) which makes it a poor representation of what can actually be done with any of the MIDI standards.
Level 23 Chipist
post #106479 :: 2019.01.03 7:53pm
  MiDoRi and MovieMovies1 liēkd this
oh, whoops, I didn't read anything except first post (^^;;
Level 12 Criticist
post #106482 :: 2019.01.04 1:13am
  MiDoRi and MovieMovies1 liēkd this
I approve of this stuff. Gimme some XG and whatnot and rename the current MIDI format to MSGS.
Level 30 Chipist
post #106483 :: 2019.01.04 1:53am
  MovieMovies1 liēkd this
I think that this might be a good idea yes.
Level 30 Chipist
post #106485 :: 2019.01.04 7:44am
  Slimeball, MiDoRi and MovieMovies1 liēkd this
remove the 64k limit as well! i want to see strobe go even more crazy. >:-)
Level 27 Chipist
post #106486 :: 2019.01.04 7:58am
  Jimmyoshi and Slimeball liēkd this
lol keffie idk if you noticed but some time ago the midi(msgs) limit was increased to 256k :^)
Level 30 Chipist
post #106487 :: 2019.01.04 8:25am
  Slimeball and MovieMovies1 liēkd this
Level 30 Chipist
post #106488 :: 2019.01.04 9:44am
  Robyn, Slimeball, speedy and MovieMovies1 liēkd this
hahahaha, my MIDI for WCXIV is about 250kB ;)
Level 27 Chipist
post #106677 :: 2019.01.14 12:54pm :: edit 2019.01.14 5:42pm
  raphaelgoulart liēkd this
Bumping this up, as this is an important topic to me and probably more people too.

also this is post no 23 here, next post will be no. 24, the OG sc55 has 24 voices of polyphony, wow

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